So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

[Coach2K]

So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I'll call a spade a spade.

I played 3 games on HOF today just to try it out (I rarely play on that level, and this happened on all 3 games. The third game was one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in this game. It's like it ramps up depending on how big your lead is. The Mavs went 14/16 in the 3rd quarter ....they would get rebounds and my players would literally just not get back while they scored bucket after bucket on cheap fast breaks. I've never seen anything like it. It would've been infuriating if I was taking these games seriously and not so busy laughing. I know a lot of people who play on HOF, and of this is what they're experiencing....I don't know how they deal with it.

All that said, I maintain that I don't experience ANYTHING like this on Superstar below though....... It is what it is. I'm happy to twitch/record/ (I'll be posting the challenge I presented once it uploads) my experience to show that. Enough paragraphs/ screen shots....time to put up...we all have systems with built in recording at this point.

I'm sure as hell uploading on that HOF game and sending it to Mike and the other dev's as well. I suggest everyone start uploading their experiences of they truly feel like it's something that needs to be fixed...

I'm currently playing a season on hall of fame mode using the actual lineups that Vogel used in that game in real life just to see what happens. So I'm not sure if hall of fame mode is tougher this year or it's just because my team is so undermanned in the early part of the season (no West, George, Hill, Watson) that that's the reason it's tougher.

Here are a couple of hall of fame videos posted below.

The first one is against the Suns. I post it so you can see the first quarter.

In that quarter, the Suns put up 81 percent shooting - and 6 of 7 of those were from three. After that, the game settled down and I played fairly even after that even though I didn't really play that great for the whole game. My guess is that the settings I originally tried along with my poor offensive decisions (bad shots) led to such an awesome outburst.

Even still, I just finished playing the Mavs and while I was able to foul Dirk out, but the Mavs still shot 60 percent versus me and grabbed a third of their misses off the offensive glass.

To me, the most frustrating thing this year is the rebounding. I played the 76ers in game one of the season and I got zero offensive rebounds. Granted I wasn't crashing the boards, but you'd think I'd get one during a 12 minute quarter game that went to overtime.

I feel like their must be a way to get better rebounding and people do against me all of the time, but I haven't figured that part out yet.

In the second video, I play the Hornets and I won that game to show what a win looks like.

There's really no third quarter momentum shift that I remember.

So far though, most of the season is pretty brutal with this Pacers squad since we are one of the lower rated teams in the league. And that's coming from someone who has played a lot of hall of fame mode each year and gotten pretty accustomed to it.

I do it, to find a way to get tougher vs users more than anything else and to see for myself what can be really accomplished if you spend a lot of time on it.

But hall of fame difficulty this year seems a little overboard at this point, although I haven't played it with my team at full strength yet to say I completely believe it yet.

http://youtu.be/6Lsw_Wz1PYc

http://youtu.be/-MdVXoOgY9s

[Tybudd]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So with that said, besides MC mode, what is the point of playing HoF, what are the benefits of it?

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

While i can agree about the 3rd quarter momentum shifts because it does indeed happen from playing recently its easy to stop once you realize its happening.

... I've been known to throw a small first half adjustment in just to see the other options/counters. That third quarter whistle go off and my adjustments is to stop everything I saw in the first half. On offense I don't change up until the 2nd half. I'm stubborn on that side of the ball but I rely on my defense anyway - well, until I get a good group of kids that can run my triangle haha.

I just wanted to say: Something the two of you said must have clicked for me. I've played 2 MC games after reading what you said and in both I was able to keep 20+ point leads in both the 3rd and 4th quarters. One game was against the Magic so that is to be expected but the second game was against the Blazers.

If what I think I discovered holds true through the next 5 games then you guys helped me break into the ai logic for adjustments.

Of course this could be a placebo I'm experiencing. We'll see. Either way, thanks for the input and perspective guys.

[Coach2K]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So with that said, besides MC mode, what is the point of playing HoF, what are the benefits of it?

To me the main benefit of doing it is that it helps you learn how to defend. You also learn your team inside and out and how to control game play.

In the end, you only learn how to beat one user who plays every team.

After that, if you play users, every user is different. Really tough users would require a different game plan.

I play some tough users who I can't beat because I can't study their play enough. But those users can't beat the HOF CPU when eventually I can because the HOF CPU tendencies become predictable. When it comes to playing users, just because you can beat the HOF CPU, it doesn't mean you can beat everyone but it does provide a unique way to improve your skills.

[Taer]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

... To me, the most frustrating thing this year is the rebounding. I played the 76ers in game one of the season and I got zero offensive rebounds. Granted I wasn't crashing the boards, but you'd think I'd get one during a 12 minute quarter game that went to overtime.

I feel like their must be a way to get better rebounding and people do against me all of the time, but I haven't figured that part out yet....

Coach:

After reviewing your clips, this is my feedback:

There is a big difference in rebounding this year as compared to last few years. It has to do with the changed up logic that was done with the post up and screening.

In years past, the engagement or prep for off-ball players in the offensive paint was reactive - the ai "helper" logic only engaged when it was actively called upon. This year, the 2k team switched it up and now the logic fires on its own, assuming you as a player will be going to these sets no matter the contextual situation.

This year, to excel on the offensive rebounds you have to compensate for this enabling before it does. The way of doing this is to keep constant the motion so that the trigger won't fire. ( causing further player rotation to trigger instead) Once this begins you finesse it back and you rinse and repeat the sequence until the shot is in play.

Ymmv but this is what I'm seeing I your sessions. I hope this helps.

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

So with that said, besides MC mode, what is the point of playing HoF, what are the benefits of it?

The game is too easy to play on any other mode, and winning by 20-40pts every match loses it's freshness after 70 games.

[dmankey1]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Anybody notice the 3rd quarter of OKC/Dallas last night?

Scoring

OKC 29 34 29 23 115
DAL 27 26 39 27 119

Dallas got hot quick in the 3rd quarter to tie it up going into the 4th and ultimately win

[QNo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Anybody notice the 3rd quarter of OKC/Dallas last night?

Scoring

OKC 29 34 29 23 115
DAL 27 26 39 27 119

Dallas got hot quick in the 3rd quarter to tie it up going into the 4th and ultimately win

People aren't complaining that such runs don't happen in the NBA. They complain that the way they occur feels very forced and unnatural, whereas this stuff happens for good reasons in the NBA. I see this straw-man argument over and over.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

People aren't complaining that such runs don't happen in the NBA. They complain that the way they occur feels very forced and unnatural, whereas this stuff happens for good reasons in the NBA. I see this straw-man argument over and over.

Some 2k staff have more or less acknowledged this issue, at least, indirectly.

It happens, and it happens in the way you describe, and there's a reason for it. Czar has spoken about it, even in the most recent sim hangout, as an issue of CPU AI.

Here's the situation: the CPU AI can't keep up with human "AI" of a well played 2k game for a whole game. So the game forces game balance by nerfing user players and success chances of user plays and shots, while giving boosts to CPU team dice rolls on all kinds of plays, from steals to drives to loose balls, etc.

That "rubber bands" the score of the game so the game stays competitive to the user. It just looks ugly along the way because the animations for how the CPU does what it does break sim, not from how NBA games play out in the scores, but from how it looks on the court. When little guards literally plow over big men for layups and then beat big men to rebounds, and balls morph through bodies for the CPU's alley oop over your defender, it breaks sim.

Look at Sam Pham's recent video about the number of CPU team passes per game and on ball screens. These numbers are all low. As a result, CU AI is generating fewer good looks on offense. So it ends up in an iso or post up that forces an unrealistic "successful" play with an unrealistic contested shot. That's an AI issue.

Czar is basically saying that this cheesy comeback stuff should keep diminishing over time as the devs get better at coding real sim basketball behavior on the court. Making the CPU play smarter will reduce the need for those rubber band effect stat boosts that artificially make the game competitive against good players.

Oh, and one other thing. Czar and Scott O'Gallagher have basically said that HOF is cheese. It's loaded up with artificial stat boosts favoring the CPU as default. So if you're seeing this stuff while playing HOF, understand that cheese is the default on that level. I know guys like Sam Pham are good enough to beat HOF sim offline regularly, but not everyone plays at that level.

[madmax52277]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Some 2k staff have more or less acknowledged this issue, at least, indirectly.

It happens, and it happens in the way you describe, and there's a reason for it. Czar has spoken about it, even in the most recent sim hangout, as an issue CPU AU.

Here's the situation: the CPU AI can't keep up with human AI of a well played 2k game for a whole game. So the game forces game balance by nerfing user players and success chances of user plays and shots, while giving boosts to CPU team dice rolls on all kinds of plays, from steals to drives to loose balls, etc.

That "rubber bands" the score of the game so the game stays competitive to the user. It just looks ugly along the way because the animations for how the CPU does what it does break sim, not from how NBA games play out in the scores, but from how it looks on the court. When little guards literally plow over big men for layups and then beat big men to rebounds, and balls morph through bodies for the CPU's alley oop over your defender, it breaks sim.

Look at Sam Pham's recent video about the number of CPU team passes per game and on ball screens. These numbers are all low. As a result, CU AI is generating fewer god looks on offense. So it ends up in an iso or post up that forces an unrealistic "successful" play with an unrealistic contested shot. That's an AI issue.

Czar is basically saying that this cheesy comeback stuff should keep diminishing over time as the devs get better at coding real sim basketball behavior on the court. Making the CPU play smarter will reduce the need for those rubber band effect stat boosts that artificially make the game competitive against good players.

Oh, and one other thing. Czar and Scott O'Gallagher have basically said that HOF is cheese. It's loaded up with artificial stat boosts favoring the CPU as default. So if you're seeing this stuff while playing HOF, understand that cheese is the default on that level. I know guys like Sam Pham are good enough to beat HOF sim offline regularly, but not everyone plays at that level.

Everything you said is gold my brother! Czar is 100% right nice post!!

[luijo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

They boost the losing team in order to allow them to make a successful run, that makes sense. I agree 100% with your post Lorenzo.

[QNo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Great post Lorenzo, I agree with everything you're saying. FWIW I have watched that Sim Hangout and I'm perfectly aware of why this issue exists. I merely posted because there are at least 10 versions of the "look, team X went on a run in the NBA last night" argument in this thread, and they're all completely missing the point and are not helpful to the discussion.

I am also not an offline guy, I much prefer playing other users. And it seems that 2k is designed to keep games close somehow which makes it hard to blow out other users. The day the patch dropped I played 6 MyTeam games online. You can see that I have a stacked team with the worst player on my bench being a 91 OVR, a boosted version of PG13. The only game I won by less than 10 points that night was against a team that had only 3 gold players (players over 82 OVR), with the best being Kyrie. It was really frustrating to constantly miss open layups/blow open dunks and have his Kyrie with low rebounding stats outrebound all of my bigs with rebounding stats in the 90s. Equally, his John Wall posterized Shaq/AD/DeAndre about 5 times, while my bigs blow open layups with Wall 5 feet away. This decreases the skill gap and gives worse players with worse teams a higher chance of winning than they should have.

There seems to be some kind of 'equalizer' built into the code, and this issue seems separate from the AI issues you described so well. Skill should not be punished. I don't mind if they make HoF Sim against the CPU super cheesy, people who want that challenge can have that challenge, it's just not for me. But I do mind if playing against other users has artificial runs. Magnus Carlsen, the best chess player in the world, doesn't get handicapped in any way if he plays against #100 in the world. He simply crushes them every time, because he's that much better. It feels like 2k is designed so that it takes away one of Magnus's pawns if he's in a better position just so the game isn't as close. Magnus will still win if he keeps his cool and adjusts to what's happening, but it still takes away some of his edge for no reason.

If 2k really wants their game to be played at MLG they have to take out this behaviour and allow the better player to fully utilize their edge. In all of the best games, the #1 in the world is much better than the #10. The #10 still has a chance, but the #100 doesn't. Chess is like this, tennis is like this. In 2k, the #100 has a good chance against the #1. See here as to how games should be balanced. I would also recommend the book.

[luijo]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Great post Qno.

Lorenzo's post made me realize what 2K is trying to accomplish here.

They give the loosing team a 'limited' momentum run, I say limited because the length of the run is not constant, I think it gets affected by timeouts and the other team momentum plays. I believe this feature is always running in the background, since it's not only applied to the CPU, but multiplayer games are also affected by it.

What they are trying to do is to give anyone the ability to perform great runs and also become a victim of it.

I remember an NCAA game that featured home court advantage, that boosted the home team momentum after good plays, I believe this feature automatically executed in 2K15

[LorenzoDC]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

Great post Qno.

Lorenzo's post made me realize what 2K is trying to accomplish here.

They give the loosing team a 'limited' momentum run, I say limited because the length of the run is not constant, I think it gets affected by timeouts and the other team momentum plays. I believe this feature is always running in the background, since it's not only applied to the CPU, but multiplayer games are also affected by it.

What they are trying to do is to give anyone the ability to perform great runs and also become a victim of it.

I remember an NCAA game that featured home court advantage, that boosted the home team momentum after good plays, I believe this feature automatically executed in 2K15

I think this is on point. It's also true that, as a user player, you can minimize the run or throw gas on it.

When the user is ahead and the CPU is getting the rubber band boost, it is critical to:

1. Slow down the game, running plays or smart freelance offense for open looks.
2. Move the ball, or, if the physical defense is killing your passing lanes, post up or get to the paint with a ball pick and draw fouls. Inside shots mean fewer long rebounds, which cuts down on the CPU fast break game. Take it easy on the 3's and long jumpers.
3. Ball control! Avoid turnovers. Avoid fouls too, and if you have to, back off physical defense POE or you may hand the game away at the foul line. You can D up hard again when the momentum evens out a bit.
4. Ease up on fast breaks, even if you think you have it open: your layup may be nerfed and the fast pace will allow quick CPU's scores
5. Did I mention draw fouls? Make your foul shots
6. Adjust your defensive POE to combat what the CPU is doing. Make adjustments fast because while you had success three possessions ago contesting the perimeter the CPU has noticed and is killing you at the rim.
7. Keep CPU superstars from getting hot and taking over. Contest shots with on ball defense, and use occasional off ball defense to beat star players coming around screens.
8. And, yes, call time out. It's not the cure all the way some people say "call time out!", but it can slow momentum. Sometimes you may need to spend two time outs in short succession to halt wild momentum. But you have to do the rest of this list as well, or your time outs will be wasted.

[dmankey1]

Re: So how long will 2K continue to deny 3rd quarter momentum shifts?

I think this is on point. It's also true that, as a user player, you can minimize the run or throw gas on it.

When the user is ahead and the CPU is getting the rubber band boost, it is critical to:

1. Slow down the game, running plays or smart freelance offense for open looks.
2. Move the ball, or, if the physical defense is killing your passing lanes, post up or get to the paint with a ball pick and draw fouls. Inside shots mean fewer long rebounds, which cuts down on the CPU fast break game. Take it easy on the 3's and long jumpers.
3. Ball control! Avoid turnovers. Avoid fouls too, and if you have to, back off physical defense POE or you may hand the game away at the foul line. You can D up hard again when the momentum evens out a bit.
4. Ease up on fast breaks, even if you think you have it open: your layup may be nerfed and the fast pace will allow quick CPU's scores
5. Did I mention draw fouls? Make your foul shots
6. Adjust your defensive POE to combat what the CPU is doing. Make adjustments fast because while you had success three possessions ago contesting the perimeter the CPU has noticed and is killing you at the rim.
7. Keep CPU superstars from getting hot and taking over. Contest shots with on ball defense, and use occasional off ball defense to beat star players coming around screens.
8. And, yes, call time out. It's not the cure all the way some people say "call time out!", but it can slow momentum. Sometimes you may need to spend two time outs in short succession to halt wild momentum. But you have to do the rest of this list as well. or your time outs will be wasted.

Great tips. This is pretty much how I treat every 4th quarter that I've got a lead in. You can't give the CPU fuel to continue the run. Stay calm and slow everything down, don't turn it over and try to feed your post man (if he's any good) or drive with your guard and try to draw a foul. Also, depending on how you handle rotations, I've found that it does help some to make a sub or two during their run. I feel like it mixes up their offense, especially if you can create a mix match in your defensive favor. Unfortunately, it's not an easy or quick fix like some of the other issues have been but it seems 2K is aware and willing so that's good.