The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Are you talking about offball bumps?

I'm talking about one vs one. Perimeter play, primarily. There are a few suspect animations where the ballhandler either stops dead or bounces off the defender. The defender often gets to a spot because they seem to be a little to quick to react to what the ballhandler is doing, or they recover incredibly fast and kinda defy physics and are all of a sudden in a great defensive position. There needs to be a lot more riding 2 way animations as opposed to 2 players coming to a dead stop or the ballhandler flailing about and losing his dribble.

[ch46647]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Are you talking about offball bumps?

Equally as important is eliminating all of the on-ball contact (stickyness/magnetism/warping) that seems to have snuck its way back in the game this year. The dribbling is light years better but it's negated by all the on-ball CPU AI defender shenannigans.

***In addition to the stickyness, the ball handler moves seem to nerfed again when a CPU defender is in the area. It almost seems like there is an input delay and a lot of the moves are negated or dont trigger when you flick the joy stick. Also, that dreaded hesitation is back where the player will not explode out of moves, particularly on cross overs.)

If you guys fix ACE and defensive rotations are working this game really should not need all the artificial boosts. It really takes away from the organic flow and feeling of using an elite ball handler, as well as the special feeling of having an elite shut down defender (when all CPU on-ball defenders play like Kawaii Leaonard).

Hopefully you guys can remove all this in the next big gameplay patch. (It honestly felt much better in the prelude)

[BegBy]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Equally as important is eliminating all of the on-ball contact (stickyness/magnetism/warping) that seems to have snuck its way back in the game this year. The dribbling is light years better but it's negated by all the on-ball CPU AI defender shenannigans.

***In addition to the stickyness, the ball handler moves seem to nerfed again when a CPU defender is in the area. It almost seems like there is an input delay and a lot of the moves are negated or dont trigger when you flick the joy stick. Also, that dreaded hesitation is back where the player will not explode out of moves, particularly on cross overs.)

If you guys fix ACE and defensive rotations are working this game really should not need all the artificial boosts. It really takes away from the organic flow and feeling of using an elite ball handler, as well as the special feeling of having an elite shut down defender (when all CPU on-ball defenders play like Kawaii Leaonard).

Hopefully you guys can remove all this in the next big gameplay patch. (It honestly felt much better in the prelude)

I had the game playing really well last night with almost all of the contact on the perimeter gone. There were lots ride animations and the occasional suspect collision but to be fair the collisions were always (and I mean always) either a charge or a blocking. It was glorious. I'm not saying the rest of the defense was awesome, because the only way to really do it is to drop the body up sensitivity slider to 30 for humans and defensive consistency slider to a lowly 15. And sadly as a result defensive help was crappy, but I dealt with it fine by running a lot of plays and driving when I had to, and also lowering shot percentages and shooting fouls. It all ended when I got the roster update. I keep forgetting to go offline. These updates slide in these sneaky tweaks that just destroy gameplay at times.

On topic - pleaaaaaaaaaaaase, Mike. Hear us. I know you watch basketball. When is the last time you saw a guard or anyone, for that matter (let alone Steph) get picked up on a switch by any random big and said big drives the ballhandler from the top of the key all the way to the painted baseline area? Or said ballhandler and big just smash into each other sending the ballhandler back past the 3 point stripe? Never? Exactly!!!!! I get it. You need to put it in game for balance. Make the sliders work so it's gone completely, without making help defenders mouth breathing window lickers. Please, sir.

Appreciate you, as always, Mike.

[sirjam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

You guys should really follow Scott Ogalagher (sp) on Twitter. He did a awesome stream on how teams have their specific schemes in game as well as what all the def settings do. OG cleared up a lot of issues I'm seeing u guys post about. It was a awesome 2 hr event.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Anyone have the stream archived?

[MarkWilliam]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

You guys should really follow Scott Ogalagher (sp) on Twitter. He did a awesome stream on how teams have their specific schemes in game as well as what all the def settings do. OG cleared up a lot of issues I'm seeing u guys post about. It was a awesome 2 hr event.

Such a shame it wasn't archived man. I was at work during the stream so there was no way of seeing it.

Hopefully he does another one soon.

[rjohns23]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

You guys should really follow Scott Ogalagher (sp) on Twitter. He did a awesome stream on how teams have their specific schemes in game as well as what all the def settings do. OG cleared up a lot of issues I'm seeing u guys post about. It was a awesome 2 hr event.

Would you mind sharing some key points or highlights he discussed?

[Krodis]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Part of the problem is the game doesn't do anything to explain or even indicate to you what the scheme is and what you should be doing defensively. As a big basketball geek I have a good grasp of defensive concepts so I tend to figure it out, but even I can't keep track of every teams different scheme. And people who go in without a wealth of xs and os knowledge just end up completely lost and often going against what the CPU expects.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[rjohns23]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Part of the problem is the game doesn't do anything to explain or even indicate to you what the scheme is and what you should be doing defensively. As a big basketball geek I have a good grasp of defensive concepts so I tend to figure it out, but even I can't keep track of every teams different scheme. And people who go in without a wealth of xs and os knowledge just end up completely lost and often going against what the CPU expects.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Yea this 100% true. I'm a coach as well so I know all the jargin but it would be nice to have a tutorial for all the ACE implementations. I just don't see the logic of putting something as complicated as ACE and have no tutorial on the sets.

At least have option in where we can practice our defensive and ACE sets in a scrimmage. (I don't think those options are there)

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Part of the problem is the game doesn't do anything to explain or even indicate to you what the scheme is and what you should be doing defensively. As a big basketball geek I have a good grasp of defensive concepts so I tend to figure it out, but even I can't keep track of every teams different scheme. And people who go in without a wealth of xs and os knowledge just end up completely lost and often going against what the CPU expects.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Ouch...I understand the basic fundamentals of defense in one-on-one situations or directing teammates having been a defensive-minded player IRL, but I don't know schemes.

[Impetuous65]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Yea this 100% true. I'm a coach as well so I know all the jargin but it would be nice to have a tutorial for all the ACE implementations. I just don't see the logic of putting something as complicated as ACE and have no tutorial on the sets.

At least have option in where we can practice our defensive and ACE sets in a scrimmage. (I don't think those options are there)

I've been harping on this since last year, but they keep on rehashing how to dribble and shoot tutorials. They really need to take a look at what Madden is doing when it comes to teaching concepts. And it is not about knowing jargon, because what X mean to you does not equate to what it means in somewhere else. Like playing a pick up game of 21 Memphis, Tn. is completely different in terms of rules to the ones play here is So Cal. They should just adopt maddens logic and treat the customer as a novice period. Inside basketball benefits no one. And, when you have ACE set to ON, just like on Offense with the Freelance tells you which freelance you're in, this should be done for ACE on defense. I know I'm in Man to Man, but what are we shrinking the floor? are we boxes and elbows"?

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

I've been harping on this since last year, but they keep on rehasing how to dribble and shoot tutorials. They really need to take a look at what Madden is doing when it comes to teaching concepts. And it is not about knowing jargon, because what X mean to you does not equate to what it means in somewhere else. Like playing a pick up game of 21 Memphis, Tn. is completely different in terms of rules to the ones play here is So Cal. They should just adopt maddens logic and treat the customer as a novice period. Inside basketball benefits no one. And, when you have ACE set to ON, just like on Offense with the Freelance tells you which freelance you're in, this should be done for ACE. I know I'm in Man to Man, but what are we shrinking the floor? are we boxes and elbows"?

Good idea. If I know what ACE is attempting to do defensively, I can easily adjust my defensive approach on the fly. With the ACE offense, I know the trigger points and basic play types of the freelance offense. I'm not greatest X's and O's guy, but I can run the offense accordingly. Throw in the playart, and I'm always good to go offensively.

[WISports]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

My issue with this year, as always, is on ball defense and the physicality. This year it just seems a lot more pronounced.

The body checking and stumbling animations I see at least 20 times a game have got to be toned down. You don't see that type of play barely that often in a month of NBA games, but I'll see it in one full game of 2K.

One on one defense is not what NBA defense is about and making defenders lightning fast and nearly psychic is just a really ugly way of implementing defense in this game.

I've said for years, and I'll say it again - the 2K series needs to take it's finished product and dial back everything by a significant margin. We don't need iso moves that take up the entire key. Getting by your guy could and should be as simple as having a shoulder in front of your guy. You don't need to get 8 feet of separation to be able to work. It makes the court seem smaller because the animations literally take up too much real estate.

Here's to hoping that better defensive rotations can be patched in. Here's to also hoping that one on one situations receive dramatic improvement. Speed boosts, inhuman recovery times, slow played out animations for the ball handler, etc will stop scoring (to some extent) but it certainly does not make for an immersive simulation sports game.

This needs to be bumped. Hopefully 2K sees this and does something about it.

[antdoggydogg]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

Did OG address the fact that our ACE adjustments don't do anything in-game? Can't imagine how he did a tutorial on a feature that doesn't seem to work properly at the moment.

[Impetuous65]

Re: The FUNDAMENTAL issue with 2k17's AI Defense

You guys should really follow Scott Ogalagher (sp) on Twitter. He did a awesome stream on how teams have their specific schemes in game as well as what all the def settings do. OG cleared up a lot of issues I'm seeing u guys post about. It was a awesome 2 hr event.

Doesn't do us any good, if we don't know the scheme to begin with. The defensive side of the ball is incomplete. The only info we get in game is Man to Man or Zone sets, other than that the AI/ACE doesn't let us know(if its on) hey guys we are shrinking the floor this time around ok. In addition to that, his streams does no one no good because he doesn't archive them.