3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

[jfsolo]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Yep, tuning differently for online and offline isn't enough they also need to have separate online tuning for those who want shooting to be tuned based off of what actually happens with shooting in the real world and tuning for those who want shooting to be tuned off of video game parameters, where badges and archetypes can turn anyone into the greatest shooter in the history of the sport.

[jyoung]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Shooting should be easy. You should be able to hit wide open shots. Shooting shouldn't be a skill. Pressing the shoot button doesnt take rocket science, or years if playing the game. Anyone should be able to pick up the sticks and feel like they can be fairly good at the simplest part of basketball.

If shooting a basketball is so easy, then why do the best shooters in the NBA miss half of their wide open looks?

The answer to that question, is that the physics of putting a 9-inch-wide ball through an 18-inch-wide hole are often unpredictable.

Sometimes you take a shot that feels good and looks good, yet it rims out. Sometimes you take a shot that feels bad and looks bad, yet it bounces in. That's just how basketball works.

NBA 2K17, in its current state, does a terrible job of simulating that unpredictably. If it wasn't for 2K's ever-present input lag, people in Pro Am and MyPark would probably be shooting 90% from three, because the latency -- and the unpredictable variance it creates in the shot meter's timing -- is really the only thing stopping people from making every single open shot with the current gameplay sliders.

I'm not saying every user should be able to shoot 100% from wide open shots, but if a user works hard to get open and he knows his shot, there shouldn't be some scale dictating whether or not his shot should fall in or not.
If we were talking in terms of FPS, if a player has you dead to rights on a headshot and you arent hiding behind cover than the average player should get kill, regardless if the person getting shot is skilled or not.

Counter-Strike is the world's most popular first-person shooter, and its esport competitors still have to deal with realistic bullet spray and bullet recoil. You can have the perfect shot lined up in that game, yet still miss your mark, due to the tough-to-predict nature of those real-world factors.

Other popular shooters like Battlefield make aiming even more difficult by having varying degrees of bullet drop when firing over long distances.

Not every successful esport shooter has to be designed like Quake/Unreal/Halo, where your bullets always go exactly where you point your cursor, 100% of the time. And neither does NBA 2K; it could do just as well in the esports arena with a shooting system that made it feel like the Counter-Strike of traditional sports games.

[cablexdeadpool]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

The fact that you gotta guard players that have 50 3 point ratings should be enough to change it.

I never seen a player base so bent on having stupid and I do mean stupid results.

There's no reason to guard players that have a 50 3 point rating.

This whole "I know my shot, it should go in" reasoning is flawed, seriously flawed.

Either you wanna play NBA Street or you wanna play NBA 2K.

[jfsolo]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Not every successful esport shooter has to be designed like Quake/Unreal/Halo, where your bullets always go exactly where you point your cursor, 100% of the time. And neither does NBA 2K; it could do just as well in the esports arena with a shooting system that made it feel like the Counter-Strike of traditional sports games.

It seems like the most vocal esports/online peeps do want a Quake-like shooting system instead of one like CS.

The fact that you gotta guard players that have 50 3 point ratings should be enough to change it.

I never seen a player base so bent on having stupid and I do mean stupid results.

There's no reason to guard players that have a 50 3 point rating.

This whole "I know my shot, it should go in" reasoning is flawed, seriously flawed.

Either you wanna play NBA Street or you wanna play NBA 2K.

They want to play NBA 2K Street. Seriously, they really do. It's basically impossible to dissuade them from that "I know my shot" mentality.

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Counter-Strike is the world's most popular first-person shooter, and its esport competitors still have to deal with realistic bullet spray and bullet recoil. You can have the perfect shot lined up in that game, yet still miss your mark, due to the tough-to-predict nature of those real-world factors.

Other popular shooters like Battlefield make aiming even more difficult by having varying degrees of bullet drop when firing over long distances.

Not every successful esport shooter has to be designed like Quake/Unreal/Halo, where your bullets always go exactly where you point your cursor, 100% of the time. And neither does NBA 2K; it could do just as well in the esports arena with a shooting system that made it feel like the Counter-Strike of traditional sports games.

I have to call out this post & whoever is comparing shooting in a basketball game to an FPS game.

The reason those recoil, damage drop, bullet drop, etc. FPS mechanics exist is to prevent it from being a primitive twitch shooter. It adds an extra element(s) to make it more strategic. If this wasn't present, it would be extremely linear. Whoever shoots first, gets the kill.


Nothing in basketball or 2k is as linear and simplistic as a twitch shooter. There are many different strategic aspects to getting an open shot in basketball. If people are getting open shots too easily (lol brick wall), then that should be addressed before we start talking about FG%.

I agree that non-shooters shouldn't be able to make open shots as well as they do, because they nullify the strategic worth of shooters and create an imbalance. However, handcuffing shooters to a 50% open shot% figure because "realism" would also create the same exact imbalance.

The game as a whole does not play realistically. Don't try to shoehorn realistic percentages until defense, movement, speed, etc. all plays realistically as well.

[de_jesus]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

I have to call out this post & whoever is comparing shooting in a basketball game to an FPS game.

The reason those recoil, damage drop, bullet drop, etc. FPS mechanics exist is to prevent it from being a primitive twitch shooter. It adds an extra element(s) to make it more strategic. If this wasn't present, it would be extremely linear. Whoever shoots first, gets the kill.


Nothing in basketball or 2k is as linear and simplistic as a twitch shooter. There are many different strategic aspects to getting an open shot in basketball. If people are getting open shots too easily (lol brick wall), then that should be addressed before we start talking about FG%.

I agree that non-shooters shouldn't be able to make open shots as well as they do, because they nullify the strategic worth of shooters and create an imbalance. However, handcuffing shooters to a 50% open shot% figure because "realism" would also create the same exact imbalance.

The game as a whole does not play realistically. Don't try to shoehorn realistic percentages until defense, movement, speed, etc. all plays realistically as well.

This is silly...

You're arguing that 2K should not make the game more realistic where it can (shooting percentages) because every aspect of the game isn't realistic.

That's such a silly line of reasoning. You're basically arguing to make 2K a basketball version of a twitch shooter because the person who "shoots first" or "shoots more often" will most likely win because players will not play to their ratings because they are open. Being open should not be a "green" light for an automatic make. There is no imbalance about guys shooting 50% from the arc when wide open. The majority of players are going to miss more wide open shots from the arc then they will make. Taking a 3 should invite that chance - risk vs reward. You can score more points but you have a greater chance to miss the shot.

To make a shooter analogy - It's like using a .44 Magnum vs using a Beretta. One has MUCH MORE stopping/killing power but is offset by increased recoil. The chance of hitting your target is lower because the reward for doing so is greater.

No shooter should be knocking it down at 80%+ from the arc in a normal game. Period. Every once in a while, sure. But I'd rather 2K focus on giving us realistic wide open shooting percentages which top out at around 50-55% for the BEST shooters (95+ ratings with HOF badges) WHILE it works on tweaking and improving the other aspects of the game to drop those percentages - defense, movement, AI awareness, etc.

Shooting around or above 60% from three should be a unicorn in this game. It should happen so infrequently that it's a big deal when it does happen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

This is silly...

You're arguing that 2K should not make the game more realistic where it can (shooting percentages) because every aspect of the game isn't realistic.

That's such a silly line of reasoning. You're basically arguing to make 2K a basketball version of a twitch shooter because the person who "shoots first" or "shoots more often" will most likely win because players will not play to their ratings because they are open. Being open should not be a "green" light for an automatic make. There is no imbalance about guys shooting 50% from the arc when wide open. The majority of players are going to miss more wide open shots from the arc then they will make. Taking a 3 should invite that chance - risk vs reward. You can score more points but you have a greater chance to miss the shot.

To make a shooter analogy - It's like using a .44 Magnum vs using a Beretta. One has MUCH MORE stopping/killing power but is offset by increased recoil. The chance of hitting your target is lower because the reward for doing so is greater.

No shooter should be knocking it down at 80%+ from the arc in a normal game. Period. Every once in a while, sure. But I'd rather 2K focus on giving us realistic wide open shooting percentages which top out at around 50-55% for the BEST shooters (95+ ratings with HOF badges) WHILE it works on tweaking and improving the other aspects of the game to drop those percentages - defense, movement, AI awareness, etc.

Shooting around or above 60% from three should be a unicorn in this game. It should happen so infrequently that it's a big deal when it does happen.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Yes, they shouldnt try to shoehorn a realistic shooting figure because shooting % is the most consequential aspect of the game. If they want realism, then they need to adjust the factors that contribute to high shooting % before anything else. Nothing in a shooter game is as consequential as shooting %.

Doing the opposite of this would be like putting a bandage on a torn ACL and expecting everything to be fine.

Hypothetical situation - 2k17 update caps sharpshooters at 50% and non-sharpshooters at 35%.

Given what we know about how this game plays (paint forcing, passing, speed, dribbling, defense etc) the offense has no reason to attempt a shot. The value of the 35% figure is much less than any other non-contested shot they can get.

Everyone would just pack the paint like we're in the 1970's. Adjusting shooting percentages only would be literal regression in the strategic department.

The game/devs need to have some level of self awareness. Having balanced shooting %'s can help mask the issues this game has.

[alabamarob]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Take the best open 3 percentage in the league which is Korver at 55 percent and cap that as a 99 on open makes. No one should shoot over that. Then work down from there.

[Breakstarter]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

I say don't put a "ceiling" on what a users shooting percentage should be based on real life because then you won't know who the really great players are. There's no room to shoot better than the real life players. Let's call it the why not factor. Let's say you build your pg as a 6'3 playmaker and you max your rebounding attributes all the way up. Would it be safe to say that most of you would think it's unrealistic that and user playing against another user online could Average a triple double whenever he plays based off of his play.store or would you feel if he was doing that, thend 2k would have to nerf rebounding because 6'3 point guards shouldn't be allowed to rebound like that on a consistent basis?

The reason play games is to escape reality, not to simulate reality. It's cool that visually games can replicate real life, but in no way is anyone ever gonna be steph Curry or LeBron James. Videogames adhere to different rules compared to real life. Some of you guys on here need to realize that. Let's just get back to having fun. When did all of you become so serious??

[ILLSmak]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

I have to call out this post & whoever is comparing shooting in a basketball game to an FPS game.

The reason those recoil, damage drop, bullet drop, etc. FPS mechanics exist is to prevent it from being a primitive twitch shooter. It adds an extra element(s) to make it more strategic. If this wasn't present, it would be extremely linear. Whoever shoots first, gets the kill.


Nothing in basketball or 2k is as linear and simplistic as a twitch shooter. There are many different strategic aspects to getting an open shot in basketball. If people are getting open shots too easily (lol brick wall), then that should be addressed before we start talking about FG%.

I agree that non-shooters shouldn't be able to make open shots as well as they do, because they nullify the strategic worth of shooters and create an imbalance. However, handcuffing shooters to a 50% open shot% figure because "realism" would also create the same exact imbalance.

The game as a whole does not play realistically. Don't try to shoehorn realistic percentages until defense, movement, speed, etc. all plays realistically as well.

To be honest, a lot of it is due to shooting. If you check the shooting percentages and compare them to true shooting percentages in NBA history, it's extremely high with that level of 3 point shooting.

The core of bball strategy is not 'get an open shot', in my opinion, getting open shots is what happens when you execute bball strategy. You run a play to get a good shot, or a good match up. The way the defense changes creates open shots. The reason shooters are valued is because they make it so that you can't help, or that by helping, you are taking a calculated risk.

If you look at the value of 1 shot, compare that it can be worth 2 points or 3, and then check the comparison on percentages, at a certain point, especially in games that are to 21 and with all of these other variables, the 3 just becomes more valuable. That is: it becomes a smart play to pass up an open lay up to a 3. That's basically one way of looking at who knows how to play 2k or not: if I am in the corner and you come around for a lay up and the defender isn't close enough to contest it, but is sagging down (because that's what the brain tells you to do... wait... a lay up!) then most people who are good at 2k, in park at least, would pass it to the 3 point shooter (unless dude could steal it somehow), every time. You get 3/21 points, you get a better teammate grade increase, which is more VC. It's a no brainer. That's a very fundamental flaw.

In Pro Am, well, there are just more bodies setting picks. I think it's easier to defend the 3 in Park.

Shooting is a big thing and it changes the way strategy goes. Players can move perfectly (they move OK, physicality in terms of player on player collisions need work, the post needs more work, dudes are a bit faster, accelerate faster, and get that weird 'boost' a mid court), but to enter the arena of sloppy analogy with you guys, it's like... you can make the best shooter but if everyone is shooting homing bullets, it takes away the other strategy aspects.

The strategy of 2k is pull it. Find a way to pull it. Get open, shoot a 3. Probe until you get an open 3. Less people touch the ball, not much off ball movement, to be honest, and this might be the first time I observed this: because of 2k being so 3 focused, it is probably boring for the people who can't hit 3s. I never cared, cuz I loved cleaning up misses and kicking it back out, but imagine the dudes who are like hey... I'm the pick setter or hey... I'm the guy who only plays D. Then 2k is like... BUT WAIT, you can hit 3s, too. Now everyone can get that little endorphin rush of GREEN.

Edit: I also believe that if you can fix a fundamental flaw easily, you do it, even though it might completely imbalance your game. It's kind of like pulling a sheet off of the truth. "This is what your game is like." It will highlight the next fundamental flaw. Games shouldn't have fundamental flaws. Quirks, sure, but there are a few real flaws in 2k.

Edit 2: at break. Gimme a 7'3 55 rated stretch big and a 6'3 playmaker isn't getting rebounds. haha. Rebounding is not a valuable thing to put points into, in my opinion, as a non glass cleaner. I will go to 70 in rebs and defense in non spec builds. Saves a lot of points and I don't know if there is a huge difference. Height and knowing how to get to spots is the difference. As long as your dude can secure the ball, but he has to have it in his 'zone' to secure it at all. I dunno how much rebounding makes a difference 70 to 90, tbh. I'd like to see a full spec glass cleaner at 70 (w/ badges.)

-Smak

[Breakstarter]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Take the best open 3 percentage in the league which is Korver at 55 percent and cap that as a 99 on open makes. No one should shoot over that. Then work down from there.

I totally disagree with that mindset. I don't think we should have limitations on what we should be able to do in a videogame. In real life we have limitations, videogames we can do whatever we want..why are people obsessed with putting caps on every single aspect of the game...I want freedom to play however i want in a game. We can still have a great simulation basketball game without these caps.
Nba 2k11 is regarded as the best 2k ever. However flawed that game was, the one thing I remember about it most, was that there was more freedom to do what you want with your players than in this generation of 2k. Let's stop whining about people breaking the game and accept the fact there are a huge amount of folks who simply want to have a fun free game where restrictions are a thing of the past.

[ILLSmak]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

Yes, they shouldnt try to shoehorn a realistic shooting figure because shooting % is the most consequential aspect of the game. If they want realism, then they need to adjust the factors that contribute to high shooting % before anything else. Nothing in a shooter game is as consequential as shooting %.

Doing the opposite of this would be like putting a bandage on a torn ACL and expecting everything to be fine.

Hypothetical situation - 2k17 update caps sharpshooters at 50% and non-sharpshooters at 35%.

Given what we know about how this game plays (paint forcing, passing, speed, dribbling, defense etc) the offense has no reason to attempt a shot. The value of the 35% figure is much less than any other non-contested shot they can get.

Everyone would just pack the paint like we're in the 1970's. Adjusting shooting percentages only would be literal regression in the strategic department.

The game/devs need to have some level of self awareness. Having balanced shooting %'s can help mask the issues this game has.

Double post, that's not true. haha. 50 35 is a weird number. Still high, kind of, but it's pretty arbitrary. People do pack the paint in the real NBA, that's why people get open 3s all of the time. It would not ruin strategy.

It would *maybe* be like that at first, but it'd be like that window when a new 2k drops, then someone would learn how to play, and everyone would emulate them. 2k players are constantly waiting for people to show them what works, that's why some of the worst park players possess the skill sets of some of the best 2k players, but they are unable to execute the strategy properly. They do the dribbling, they have the right packages equipped, but they are probably like WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING FOR ME?! Cuz they don't grasp nuance.

It wouldn't be a brick fest. It wouldn't ruin the game. Mid is still all day wet. You have to take it one step at a time, especially because the community is what defines how the game is played. It's hard to test these kind of games. You have to have people play them. 2k 'esports' season is over, they should just focus on balance.

The only real travesty is that people put points into their 3, and they are gonna be mad. haha. I'm not even mad at the level of 3s. I can adapt to it, mostly. It's frustrating when you have to run through picks and all, but it's really making the game simplistic.

I bet on any slider set, given a few games, I can figure out a way to score. In 2k, it's not getting stops. If you get a stop, the offense failed or someone made a great defensive play. It's more like which do you wanna give up a 2 or a 3?

-Smak

[de_jesus]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

I totally disagree with that mindset. I don't think we should have limitations on what we should be able to do in a videogame. In real life we have limitations, videogames we can do whatever we want..why are people obsessed with putting caps on every single aspect of the game...I want freedom to play however i want in a game. We can still have a great simulation basketball game without these caps.
Nba 2k11 is regarded as the best 2k ever. However flawed that game was, the one thing I remember about it most, was that there was more freedom to do what you want with your players than in this generation of 2k. Let's stop whining about people breaking the game and accept the fact there are a huge amount of folks who simply want to have a fun free game where restrictions are a thing of the past.

Are you being intentionally "out-there" or do you actually fail to realize that people want a game that can resemble the real NBA where the fun is emulating your favorite players as best you can. That way the playing field is level when you go up against someone else. If you have the Nets and your opponent has the Warriors expect to have a rough night.

If someone wishes to play at a 100% shot making rate then go-offline, adjust your sliders, and fire away. But by and large people simply want to feel like their favorite players are playing like their favorite players especially when they are playing "competitively". It makes the playing field neutral and ensures a players ratings dictates their success but binds them to the reality of the NBA. Steph should shoot like Steph, LeBron like LeBron, Shaq like Shaq. I personally do not want Shaq knocking down jumpers when I go up against him, and right now 2K has that problem offline and online.

[de_jesus]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

It's more like which do you wanna give up a 2 or a 3?

-Smak

Exactly, and where 2K is now there is no reason to choose a 2 over a 3 most times because 3-pointers drop at a ridiculous rate.

[Jesus_Swagglesworth]

Re: 3pt Shooting has been Tweaked(Feedback Thread)

To be honest, a lot of it is due to shooting. If you check the shooting percentages and compare them to true shooting percentages in NBA history, it's extremely high with that level of 3 point shooting.

The core of bball strategy is not 'get an open shot', in my opinion, getting open shots is what happens when you execute bball strategy. You run a play to get a good shot, or a good match up. The way the defense changes creates open shots. The reason shooters are valued is because they make it so that you can't help, or that by helping, you are taking a calculated risk.

If you look at the value of 1 shot, compare that it can be worth 2 points or 3, and then check the comparison on percentages, at a certain point, especially in games that are to 21 and with all of these other variables, the 3 just becomes more valuable. That is: it becomes a smart play to pass up an open lay up to a 3. That's basically one way of looking at who knows how to play 2k or not: if I am in the corner and you come around for a lay up and the defender isn't close enough to contest it, but is sagging down (because that's what the brain tells you to do... wait... a lay up!) then most people who are good at 2k, in park at least, would pass it to the 3 point shooter (unless dude could steal it somehow), every time. You get 3/21 points, you get a better teammate grade increase, which is more VC. It's a no brainer. That's a very fundamental flaw.

In Pro Am, well, there are just more bodies setting picks. I think it's easier to defend the 3 in Park.

Shooting is a big thing and it changes the way strategy goes. Players can move perfectly (they move OK, physicality in terms of player on player collisions need work, the post needs more work, dudes are a bit faster, accelerate faster, and get that weird 'boost' a mid court), but to enter the arena of sloppy analogy with you guys, it's like... you can make the best shooter but if everyone is shooting homing bullets, it takes away the other strategy aspects.

The strategy of 2k is pull it. Find a way to pull it. Get open, shoot a 3. Probe until you get an open 3. Less people touch the ball, not much off ball movement, to be honest, and this might be the first time I observed this: because of 2k being so 3 focused, it is probably boring for the people who can't hit 3s. I never cared, cuz I loved cleaning up misses and kicking it back out, but imagine the dudes who are like hey... I'm the pick setter or hey... I'm the guy who only plays D. Then 2k is like... BUT WAIT, you can hit 3s, too. Now everyone can get that little endorphin rush of GREEN.

Edit: I also believe that if you can fix a fundamental flaw easily, you do it, even though it might completely imbalance your game. It's kind of like pulling a sheet off of the truth. "This is what your game is like." It will highlight the next fundamental flaw. Games shouldn't have fundamental flaws. Quirks, sure, but there are a few real flaws in 2k.

-Smak

The constant search for good looks at 3's is what NBA basketball is now. There's only a few teams who don't do this. Trying to exploit matchups often finds teams in trouble. Defenses will often intentionally offer a bad matchup because they want to lure the offense into trying to exploit it instead of running their usual offense.

If people are getting good looks at 3's in 2k (like you said with screens in pro am, or constant probing until defense collapses), the main focus should be in relieving that issue. Once that's done, we can properly evaluate percentages.

Double post, that's not true. haha. 50 35 is a weird number. Still high, kind of, but it's pretty arbitrary. People do pack the paint in the real NBA, that's why people get open 3s all of the time. It would not ruin strategy.

It would *maybe* be like that at first, but it'd be like that window when a new 2k drops, then someone would learn how to play, and everyone would emulate them. 2k players are constantly waiting for people to show them what works, that's why some of the worst park players possess the skill sets of some of the best 2k players, but they are unable to execute the strategy properly. They do the dribbling, they have the right packages equipped, but they are probably like WHY ISN'T THIS WORKING FOR ME?! Cuz they don't grasp nuance.

It wouldn't be a brick fest. It wouldn't ruin the game. Mid is still all day wet. You have to take it one step at a time, especially because the community is what defines how the game is played. It's hard to test these kind of games. You have to have people play them. 2k 'esports' season is over, they should just focus on balance.

The only real travesty is that people put points into their 3, and they are gonna be mad. haha. I'm not even mad at the level of 3s. I can adapt to it, mostly. It's frustrating when you have to run through picks and all, but it's really making the game simplistic.

I bet on any slider set, given a few games, I can figure out a way to score. In 2k, it's not getting stops. If you get a stop, the offense failed or someone made a great defensive play. It's more like which do you wanna give up a 2 or a 3?

-Smak

Yeah the example is abritrary, just wanted some clean numbers lol. Not sure what the consensus % people want.

It would absolutely be a brick fest, and it would stay a brickfest. If mid range in this hypothetical is still effective, then no issue was solved. We just shrunk the court spacing to make it look like the 70's knicks title teams. You basically just eliminated the 3 for the sake of doing so lol.

Factor in bad defense + rim protection + ridiculous foul animations + speed boosting + etc. and you realize the prospects of forcing inside is much more valuable than a shot.

A 2k17 sharps value stays low until they can shoot much better than everyone else, and even then it doesnt create a massive increase in worth. They can't do much of anything besides shoot, so instead of shrinking the floor like the previous example, you just make the game go from 5 on 5 to 4 on 4 (or just subtract however many sharps are on the floor) with a defender negating an immobile sharp.

Off ball screens with the sharps speed is pretty much pointless unless you add extra screeners, which then creates easier switching and worse spacing, so it's basically a waste of time.


There's just too many factors like all these ^^ to consider before adjusting shooting%.

This is all for 5 on 5 btw, park and other modes are just gonna have to have their own thing lol.