What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

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  • blackceasar
    MVP
    • Sep 2003
    • 3228

    #121
    Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

    Originally posted by glucklich
    In Jordans case marketing appeal was a sign of greatness. Thats not to say that Russell wasnt great because his style was less marketable (ie not as flashy/clutch, etc). You can be great without being marketable like Jordan but in Jordans case, greatness was what was being marketed as much as anything else. Also, you give credit to Russell where the credit should be going to Red Auerbach. He put those Celtics teams together. Red Auerbach was the difference between the Celtics/Russell winning and not the Warriors/Chamberlain. Youre basically penalizing Jordan because Red Auerbach (or his equivalent) wasnt the coach/gm of the Bulls in his early years.
    Both of you are missing the marketing angle I was getting at. The money that gets put into marketing today and in the 90's makes the money put into marketing during Russels time look like a welfare check. We became couch potatoes in the 90's and 2000+ which meant we watched more TV, we also as a people became more superficial, etc etc. Im not saying they were sinking 100 million into marketing thigns with Jordan because they were trying to hype him up or say he was the best at that time. He already was without the marketing, commericals etc...but because he was the best at that time thats who you saw all the time, thats where Nike, Gatorade, NBC, NBA, CBS, etc's big marketing dollars went. If Jordan never existed and Bill russell was 27 years old in 1995 doing his thing and putting up the same numbers the same championships and what not that he did back in his time, he would have been mareketed pretty much the same and just as heavily ans MJ was. But the fact reamains that back in the 60's and 70's it was unheard of to market things around someone that much, also the value of the dollar was alot different then. People didnt have cable TV , the internet, etc back in russels time. People werent "lable whores" back then like they are now. Its just two different times and eras. Like i said before you ask most people who grew up watching jordan, most would way without giving it any thought that hes the GOAT. You ask people who are still around but grew up watching russel and got to see Jordan too, yeah some would still say MJ is the GOAT but alot if not most of the would at least give it some thought first, some would mention russel and jordan in the same breath and some would actually say "MJ was the man, but you should have been around when Russel was doing his thing". Most of us on this board didnt grow up witching Russel, we grew up watching MJ. If you reversed the times in which they both played, but have them still achieve what they achived most of us would be making the case for Russel.
    Last edited by blackceasar; 02-03-2006, 02:18 PM.
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    • blackceasar
      MVP
      • Sep 2003
      • 3228

      #122
      Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

      Originally posted by Sonicmage
      Why is anybody even listening to what the average person has to say on the subject anyways? I would rather hear what those who know much more than the casual fan would know have to say.

      You dont go to the average person to find out which stocks or bonds to invest in. You dont go to the average person to find out how to avoid a serious infection. You dont go to the average person to find out how to build a fast and stable home computer system. Oh, I just remembered, there are people who do that, and those are also the people who never find the answers they were looking for.
      But the average person is the MAJORITY. Same with schools. 30 kids in a class room. 5 of the are super smart, 5 of them are really dumb..then the other 20 are your B and C students...but they still are the majority and as missinformed as the majority is about things.. politics, race issues, the economy, current events, etc they are still who polls and what not cater to.
      __________________________________________________ ____

      PSN = LordHveMercy08

      XBL = Lord Hve Mercy

      Add me now, because I don't like playing with little random 12 year olds.

      Comment

      • Briman123
        MVP
        • Oct 2004
        • 1361

        #123
        Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

        Jordan highlight reel.

        18-1 hell of a season regardless

        Comment

        • Tilted Brim
          G*t'ch* G*m* *p!
          • Jan 2003
          • 558

          #124
          Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

          Originally posted by Gilateen
          His will to win and his work ethic to be the greatest.

          How old are you?
          Funny............that sound's a lot like Kobe!
          I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific!

          Comment

          • glucklich
            Banned
            • Jun 2004
            • 4272

            #125
            Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

            Originally posted by thebrim
            Funny............that sound's a lot like Kobe!

            "Will to win"..."Kobe"...? Tell that to all the Laker fans who owned #34 jerseys.

            Comment

            • rsnomar05
              MVP
              • Dec 2003
              • 3662

              #126
              Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

              Originally posted by glucklich
              In Jordans case marketing appeal was a sign of greatness. Thats not to say that Russell wasnt great because his style was less marketable (ie not as flashy/clutch, etc). You can be great without being marketable like Jordan but in Jordans case, greatness was what was being marketed as much as anything else. Also, you give credit to Russell where the credit should be going to Red Auerbach. He put those Celtics teams together. Red Auerbach was the difference between the Celtics/Russell winning and not the Warriors/Chamberlain. Youre basically penalizing Jordan because Red Auerbach (or his equivalent) wasnt the coach/gm of the Bulls in his early years.
              I am not at all. Teams had to double Russell because he was so great. Yes, that was Red's strategy to have him draw the double, but teams would have doubled him without Red. And I believe the players were the main reason the C's beat Chamberlain's teams. Sure, Red gets credit for his coaching strategy, however, it wasn't his strategy that gave Russell 50 rebounds against Wilt in the finals. Jordan's marketability was a sign of greatness, but Russell played back in a time when NBA players didn't get the huge marketing deals. Those went to baseball players. And those deals were smaller, not the mega-Nike deals the stars sign today. Yes, players were used for marketing, but not like they are today. Would Russell have gotten the Nike deal were he playing today? He was the league's most popular player, so probably. But he isn't alive today, so we just don't know. So you can't compare the two based on marketability.

              Comment

              • glucklich
                Banned
                • Jun 2004
                • 4272

                #127
                Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                Originally posted by rsnomar05
                I am not at all. Teams had to double Russell because he was so great. Yes, that was Red's strategy to have him draw the double, but teams would have doubled him without Red. And I believe the players were the main reason the C's beat Chamberlain's teams. Sure, Red gets credit for his coaching strategy, however, it wasn't his strategy that gave Russell 50 rebounds against Wilt in the finals. Jordan's marketability was a sign of greatness, but Russell played back in a time when NBA players didn't get the huge marketing deals. Those went to baseball players. And those deals were smaller, not the mega-Nike deals the stars sign today. Yes, players were used for marketing, but not like they are today. Would Russell have gotten the Nike deal were he playing today? He was the league's most popular player, so probably. But he isn't alive today, so we just don't know. So you can't compare the two based on marketability.
                Russell was all steak and no sizzle. Jordan was both. You tell me which is more marketable. Also, its not even a forgone conclusion that Russell was better than Wilt. He was a defensive minded center. Youre right he did get due attention but the other guys could step into the fold and take advantage...moreso than Wilts teammates. People make a big deal about how Russell stopped Chamberlain but Wilt still had good stat lines. The other guys couldnt step up the way Russells teammates could and Red was the one behind Bostons personnel decisions. He is also the one who molded them and dictated their style of play. Russell was great, but so was Chamberlain. The difference was Red.

                Comment

                • catcatch22
                  Or should I
                  • Sep 2003
                  • 3378

                  #128
                  Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                  Originally posted by glucklich
                  Russell was all steak and no sizzle. Jordan was both. You tell me which is more marketable. Also, its not even a forgone conclusion that Russell was better than Wilt. He was a defensive minded center. Youre right he did get due attention but the other guys could step into the fold and take advantage...moreso than Wilts teammates. People make a big deal about how Russell stopped Chamberlain but Wilt still had good stat lines. The other guys couldnt step up the way Russells teammates could and Red was the one behind Bostons personnel decisions. He is also the one who molded them and dictated their style of play. Russell was great, but so was Chamberlain. The difference was Red.
                  No the differenc between Wilt and Russell were their teammates. When Chamberlain had that year with the 76er's where he lead the league in assists he had some of the best complimentary players he had ever had that year. They won the championship that year. Russell I think played with 5-7 hall of famers over his career. If Chamberlain had more faith in his teammates or had better teammates he would have not have to carry it all on his back all the time.

                  Comment

                  • Tilted Brim
                    G*t'ch* G*m* *p!
                    • Jan 2003
                    • 558

                    #129
                    Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                    Originally posted by glucklich
                    "Will to win"..."Kobe"...? Tell that to all the Laker fans who owned #34 jerseys.

                    Be glad to.........afterall they can own #34 Miami Heat Jerseys now!
                    Last edited by Tilted Brim; 02-03-2006, 09:11 PM.
                    I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific!

                    Comment

                    • CoRruPt-
                      MVP
                      • Jun 2005
                      • 1279

                      #130
                      Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                      Originally posted by thebrim
                      Be glad to.........afterall they can own #34 Miami Heat Jerseys now!
                      Shaq wears 32 in Miami, what are you saying

                      Comment

                      • rsnomar05
                        MVP
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 3662

                        #131
                        Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                        Originally posted by glucklich
                        Russell was all steak and no sizzle. Jordan was both. You tell me which is more marketable. Also, its not even a forgone conclusion that Russell was better than Wilt. He was a defensive minded center. Youre right he did get due attention but the other guys could step into the fold and take advantage...moreso than Wilts teammates. People make a big deal about how Russell stopped Chamberlain but Wilt still had good stat lines. The other guys couldnt step up the way Russells teammates could and Red was the one behind Bostons personnel decisions. He is also the one who molded them and dictated their style of play. Russell was great, but so was Chamberlain. The difference was Red.
                        Red was not the difference in the Wilt vs. Russell battles. Red didn't get Russell 50 rebounds. Red was the difference in the overall TEAM battles. That's like saying Tom Brady isn't better than Drew Brees because Brady has Belicek as coach. As catcatch22 pointed out, Wilt had teammates that could step up. Sure, Russell had better men on the floor around him, but that still doesn't explain why Russell would always out-rebound Wilt.

                        Comment

                        • Kobeisgod
                          Rookie
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 159

                          #132
                          Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                          Originally posted by glucklich
                          "Will to win"..."Kobe"...? Tell that to all the Laker fans who owned #34 jerseys.
                          Tell that to all Bulls fans that owned #33 jerseys

                          Comment

                          • Jukeman
                            Showtime
                            • Aug 2005
                            • 10955

                            #133
                            Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                            ^^ LOL are u serious? MJ made pippen

                            Comment

                            • Air23
                              Banned
                              • Feb 2003
                              • 2502

                              #134
                              Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                              Exactly.

                              Comment

                              • glucklich
                                Banned
                                • Jun 2004
                                • 4272

                                #135
                                Re: What exactly did MJ do to make people consider him the GOAT?

                                Originally posted by Kobeisgod
                                Tell that to all Bulls fans that owned #33 jerseys
                                That doesnt even make any sense. Did Jordan drive Pippen away? Yikes, I can see why the NBA forum gets the rep it does.

                                Comment

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