The LeBron James Thread

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

You keep hammering home the point that LeBron quit. We get it man. Everyone on Earth knows LeQuit happened. Nobody would debate that.

Honestly I don't think we all get that he quit cause the argument is continuing to be made that they didn't have what it takes to compete with or beat Boston and yet they were doing that when he gave even half effort.

The point is that team had no post presence and no Robin. Making matters worse is that they had to get through a loaded Boston team with the best defense in the entire league.

See what I mean. And Shaq had the best series out of everyone on the Cavs, dude was out there balling. They had a post presence but dissing Shaq is the cool thing to do nowadays so that's fine.

What do you mean here?

I don't think LeBron ever gave a full out, LeBron, dancing on the sidelines, busting the Cavs *** last night effort that he's capable of during that entire series even in the big win. Had he given that throughout the series I think it would have sparked his guys to give him enough to get where they needed to be. Effort and hustle from a team leader is contagious.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

And when Jason Kidd did it he wasn't going up against a Boston team with 3 HOFers and a top 5 PG or an Orlando team with the best center in the league and a still productive Lewis/Turkoglu/All-Star Nelson.

If Orlando or Boston played when Kidd was in NJ, kiss Kidd's Finals appearances goodbye

I definitely think Cleveland COULD have gotten to the Finals last year. Not saying they SHOULD have, just saying I wouldn't have been surprised if they did. They had a very solid team.

You said Detroit kind of had a post presence in Rasheed/Ben Wallace but Shaq/Varejao/Jamison don't count?

You pointed out that Shaq was no longer an All-star (even though he's still pretty good) but then you make the point that Boston is a team with 3 HOFers (ok, but they aren't really at the HOF level at this point in their careers). They're kind of like Shaq now where they aren't at the top of their game but they're still very solid, and most important, they play EXTREMELY well together.

With Cleveland, they had the superstar to do a little of everything and score the ball extremely well/take over when he needs to, their Ben Wallace in Varejao, a PF that could stretch the floor in Jamison, a spot up shooter that could handle the ball if need be in Mo Williams, and plenty of other shooters/athletic players/defenders with Parker, Moon, Hickson, etc.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

He means that with have s****y help(yea that same team without the Post Presence and Robin) on that team the year before, they(or moreso Lebron) took Boston to 7 games so it wasn't crazy/insane to think he couldn't get them over the hump the next time they would play(which unfortunately didn't happen).

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Coaching was the only significant difference between those teams, that I won't argue.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Coaching was the only significant difference between those teams, that I won't argue.

True. Though in defense of Mike Brown, his ****ty coaching has followed LeBron to Miami so...I dunno. Maybe that's why he wasn't feeling Spo. He had Brown fax his playbook to him.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Meh, I look at that as Lebron doing whatever he wants to do because he knows Spoelstra ain't got the testicular fortitude to do anything to Lebron, except keep having these little "one on one meetings" with him and even that only does so much.

[Dewie12]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

True. Though in defense of Mike Brown, his ****ty coaching has followed LeBron to Miami so...I dunno. Maybe that's why he wasn't feeling Spo. He had Brown fax his playbook to him.

If people only look at the Cavs offensively then Mike Brown was a bad coach.

He created a defensive team. That was his stated goal, always. His offensive skills were bad but also more like what NBA players want, simple matchup offense.

Defensive strategy is much more coach intensive than offense in the NBA.

[23]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

At the same time you know your limitations and you get help

If all you can do is ram defense down the players throat then get you a good offensive coach to aide you.

Its worked for Phil all these years, and other coaches as well... Doc let Thibodeau handle things defensively and also did his thing and it worked

Sometimes it makes sense to do things like that when you need it. You can't be like JVG and yell defense only while you only have 3 plays in your playbook

All of those kinds of coaches always end up fired

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I have said countless times that Cleveland was indeed a title contender, but the odds of them getting there or winning were against them due to a lack of Robin/post presence.

Shaq/Jamison/Andy count as a post presence?

That's not going to cut it. Come on now. Shaq can't play an entire game, Jamison is a stretch PF who hardly ever uses a back to the basket game, and Andy is a one dimensional hustle player. As I also said, Detroit was a major exception to conventional wisdom in the past 20 years or even in league history.

And nobody has touched upon the fact that he didn't have a Robin.

[rangerrick012]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Seriously though Ex you keep saying how no other player could have taken that team to the success that LeBron did like it's some huge accomplishment. That team was built to maximize LeBron's strengths so of course no other player could have taken them to the heights he did, they were built specifically to his talents. It was an entire team of jumpshooters brought together to spot up on the perimeter while LeBron drives and then kicks back out to them for the open look. Saying that no other player could do what he did with that team isn't making LeBron's star any brighter. I could say the same thing about the Orlando Magic if you take Dwight Howard off that team and replace him with any other star because the very core of that team's game and it's construction is based on having that beast of a center down low opening up everything those other guys do. It doesn't make Dwight a better player that he could take the Magic to the Finals and Kobe Bryant would be lucky to get out of the East with them if he was they're superstar.

Agree 100% broham. That whole argument in this instance is meaningless. That team was built to max what LeBron wanted, so of course when LeBron leaves they are going to take a hit. It's like saying what would the Rockets have been without Olajuwon, or Knicks w/o Ewing, Lakers w/o Shaq, need we go on? LeBron was that level on that team, so of course when LeBron leaves the sum isn't as great as its parts.

[rangerrick012]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Yeah you could say that about the Magic, and it speaks to how great of a presence Dwight is.

Anyway that is hardly a point I want to even argue. My main thing is if people really think the Cavs stacked up against the true contenders of the league of the past few years, IMO they're kidding themselves.

And no I'm not saying the Cavs have had awful support either. Just average at best.

Well thanks to LeBron's quitting, we'll never know if they had enough to beat the Celts, now will we?

[Scott812313]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I disagree. They was not on the level of the Lakers or that of a healthy Celtics team. In fact most people was picking both of those teams over the Cavs. That doesn't include the Magic who they probably would have struggled with as well. They was a contender because of the LeBron.

As far as the Golden State/Dallas thing goes Golden State was the worst possible matchup for Dallas. Nelson built that entire team and knew everything that they did or could do. Throw in the fact that Avery did a horrible coaching job and they lost the series.

The Celtics were seen as HUGE underdogs coming into the series with Cleveland. Don't know where you got that from. The "experts" on TV gave Boston almost no chance. Even on here, in the Cavs-Celtics thread, Moses and myself were the only people who picked Boston....

[Scott812313]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

You keep hammering home the point that LeBron quit. We get it man. Everyone on Earth knows LeQuit happened. Nobody would debate that.

The point is that team had no post presence and no Robin. Making matters worse is that they had to get through a loaded Boston team with the best defense in the entire league.

What do you mean here?

They had a Robin, just not a Batman...

[OGKing]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Anyone know what lebron and gibson were talking about?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Well thanks to LeBron's quitting, we'll never know if they had enough to beat the Celts, now will we?

What we do know is this:

No team in recent history has won without a 1-2 Combo and/or post presence.

The guy quit like Kobe did that one year and it was spineless and pathetic, but looking at the overall picture, that team wasn't built for titles.

Do you care to even discuss that in general terms? I've asked several times who was the last team to win without a 1-2 combo or a post presence and people just continue to do the "LBJ quit" thing. We all know he quit, but I'd like to hear people's takes on those two specific elements when it comes to getting a ring. Cleveland clearly didn't have either of the two.