The LeBron James Thread

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Here's the problem: Who do the Heat have, outside of their top three and...I guess Mike Miller that other teams would trade for?

Another problem is that the Heat don't have a 1st rounder from now until the next decade between Cleveland and Toronto owning the rights. Even when they do have a rare draft pick, the pick is likely going to be in the 20's unless they really collapse, and by that time, they'd probably be broken up by Riles anyway.

It's hard to say when you look at players being grabbed to fit what teams need today. Hell, Bibby may be of value to somebody next year. Haslem definitely has some value... Chalmers maybe. They've got a kid they drafted this year I think... never know what his potential is or what other teams think of it. But considering multi-partner trades, buyouts, etc. or what other aging vets want one last shot at a ring we can't really say what they can do at this point.

You think their bench is that bad?... I mean... Yea it could be..

Anyone think my idea of Wade coming off the still a crazy idea?

I think they just need better execution down the stretch of games. For example, in the Magic game when they got a big lead. They were moving the ball so much in the first half. And then when they get in trouble they seem to get away from that. So players like Wade and LeBron taking too much of the load. And get away from moving the ball.

Wade shouldn't be coming off the bench. Wade should be the focal point late in close games. They're trying to hard to prove those of us that said it was always going to be Wade's team wrong. There's a reason for it, and not just because he already has a ring on the Heat. In the 4th qtr, LBJ should be playing Pippen. It'd make the entire team better.

[jeebs9]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I don't know about this whole Wade or LeBron closing mintues thing. I would literally throw out all those hero/iso plays. I think they are working too hard on such a talented team. When the Heat have won this year. Its because they get easy shots with great ball movement. They just need to stick with it. Late in game they just carry too much of the load. Instead of keeping with what got them they in the first place.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I believe Wade would be explosive off the bench. The offense could be his moreso, but it's not like he couldn't be the focal point at the end of games and come off the bench. Also, LeBron has been one of the most clutch players in recent history, so I don't care if he continues to take shots at the end...

They struggle so much when the big 3 have to go out, regardless of any of them stay in because they're fatigued. Having a fresh Wade off the pine would stabalize their lineup, and he would still play big minutes.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

I don't know about this whole Wade or LeBron closing mintues thing. I would literally throw out all those hero/iso plays. I think they are working too hard on such a talented team. When the Heat have won this year. Its because they get easy shots with great ball movement. They just need to stick with it. Late in game they just carry too much of the load. Instead of keeping with what got them they in the first place.

Going 1 on 5 is just stupid no matter who's doing it. But you can't really look at the rest of the game the same as these situations... and the times they've won have been games when they didn't have these situations (they've been horrible in close games all year).

I believe Wade would be explosive off the bench. The offense could be his moreso, but it's not like he couldn't be the focal point at the end of games and come off the bench. Also, LeBron has been one of the most clutch players in recent history, so I don't care if he continues to take shots at the end...

They struggle so much when the big 3 have to go out, regardless of any of them stay in because they're fatigued. Having a fresh Wade off the pine would stabalize their lineup, and he would still play big minutes.

Dwight Howard would be explosive off the bench but that doesn't mean he should be coming off the bench. If signing Lebron means one of the top 5 players in the NBA should come off the bench for it to work, then you're basically proving that the signing was a horrible idea. They're both young so saving minutes shouldn't be a factor. And they do fine early in games so we can't really say having both on the court at the same time has been a problem.

I personally don't know if I'd call Lebron one of the most clutch players. He's one of the most talented players... and therefore on a team that will allow him to take the big shots he'll make some and not be criticized when he misses some. I'd have to see stats to prove he's one of the best in those situations. With that said, I don't really have a problem with him taking those shots. I have a problem with his mental make up, combined with the growing black cloud, and him feeling he has to prove that he can do it. I think Wade is better suited to make the best decision in those situations, even if that decision is to pass the ball to James. I'd much rather see James drive with the intention of dishing, or going in hard weak side for an offensive board, or being the screener of a P&R. Hell, he may end up getting the last shot in most of these scenarios anyway but I'd rather someone else decide IF he's open in a good position and HOW he gets that last shot.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

OK but Howard off Orlando's bench? That wouldn't make much sense, as they don't even have a backup center.

Obviously you have to judge each team a bit differently. With Mike Miller starting at the 2, it would give a lot more flexibility to the starting lineup, and would make James the unrivaled leader of the offense. It would push Bosh to the true #2, which would also be a positive for his psyche and his involvement on both ends of the floor.

But yes, like I said it won't happen. Politics/PR wouldn't let it. Theoretically speaking it would make sense.

As far as James being clutch I don't think you need stats to prove my statement to be true. His clutch moments are well documented, but you're right it would be nice to have some proof. I don't have any nor do I know where to look, but just off the top of my head I can remember the past two seasons where he's been killing at the end of close games.

[Pared]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Outside of Mike Miller off the bench, they're deplorable.

Their bench is probably one of the top 5 worst benches in the league.

But why is that? Think about when the "bench" is in the game - a lot of time, Wade, LBJ or Bosh are out there. They're taking the shots and you're not giving the bench ample time to gel because you still have the 1 on 5 superstar going at it.

It's not like they don't have guys that can score 8-12 ppg off the bench. They just don't have a solid offense outside of penetrate and kick it to the open shooter.

Bosh is a third option even when he's the best player on the court. Stinking it up or not, he's getting paid to be "the man" just like the other guys are.

Oh the inevitable is bound to happen.

And by that I mean if they win it all THIS YEAR, you're either gonna have the Heat Fan(not fans)and/or Bandwagoners saying "AHAHAHAHHAHA Why you mad bro!?!?!???" or you're gonna get the "Ya'll ain't nothin but some haters!!!!! Tell Rose or Durant to get on their level" etc, etc.

Or you're gonna get what you're seeing right now from people(except 100x worse since it'll be the Playoffs)in that people will relish in the fact that they didn't win it all this year, which is what all this is about anyway. The people who don't want to see them succeed don't want to see them win it THIS year and never cared about what they would do in the long term. All folks have heard was "Oh well they're not gonna win it this year" or the "I hope they don't win it this year".

Now my thing with this is why we(the general public)and in some cases the Media are giving them THIS much attention after every single loss when we judge players on Playoff Success? Last I checked, they lost a game on March 6, not May/June 6th. Like wwharton, I enjoy seeing it too but I'm not gonna beat the same dead horse after every loss because in the grand scheme of things, this won't mean **** once April 20th gets here.

However, they brought all of this on themselves and that's a fact. They wanted all the attention, they were the ones coming up with new signs to tell the "HATERSSSSSSSSS" to shut up(or in their words, kiss my ***)had the big concert/rally after the mWo was formed. They(along with any sane person in the world)will accept the attention when they're running off 18 game win streaks and "Chillin" like Bosh said but the problem now is they hate it when they lose and look to blame the media(which is the easiest thing for Athletes to do in Sports)

They're under the microscope for sure. But like you said, they asked for it...

[Pared]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

As far as James being clutch I don't think you need stats to prove my statement to be true. His clutch moments are well documented, but you're right it would be nice to have some proof. I don't have any nor do I know where to look, but just off the top of my head I can remember the past two seasons where he's been killing at the end of close games.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

James is second behind Kobe. Interesting to see Stat make such a high jump this year.

[jeebs9]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Going 1 on 5 is just stupid no matter who's doing it. But you can't really look at the rest of the game the same as these situations... and the times they've won have been games when they didn't have these situations (they've been horrible in close games all year).

In my opinion if you go back and look at all of their games that they've lost (when it was close). Easier is better. When they move the ball around. And get good looks. In the game they beat the Thunder. A lot of people look at Lebron James not taking that last shot as a bad thing. And passing the ball to a better 3pt shooter. For a way better look. By the way Wade missed the shot on that play as well.

And again with the whole LeBron not being clutch thing. Everyone seems to be focused on this seasons misses.

"You swing big. You miss big" - Kobe

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

James is second behind Kobe. Interesting to see Stat make such a high jump this year.

About Miami's bench, I just don't think any of them should be depended upon to do much of anything outside of Miller. Do I really want Mike Bibby/James Jones/Eddie House/Big Z/Joel Anthony in the game for more than a few minutes? Maybe Jones/House in situations, but other than that... meh.

As far as your clutch stats, wow James has been #1 or #2 for the past 3 or 4 years.

This year he hasn't had "clutch moments" but I know last year and the year before he had a ton of those moments.

[jeebs9]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

But why is that? Think about when the "bench" is in the game - a lot of time, Wade, LBJ or Bosh are out there. They're taking the shots and you're not giving the bench ample time to gel because you still have the 1 on 5 superstar going at it.

It's not like they don't have guys that can score 8-12 ppg off the bench. They just don't have a solid offense outside of penetrate and kick it to the open shooter.

Bosh is a third option even when he's the best player on the court. Stinking it up or not, he's getting paid to be "the man" just like the other guys are.

Exactly my point...

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

My question to everyone, which I don't think has one answer:

How do you judge how good a bench is? Is it by how well they spell the guy they're playing behind? Is it just by their name? How do you determine who has a good bench and who doesn't have one?

[OSUFan_88]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

My question to everyone, which I don't think has one answer:

How do you judge how good a bench is? Is it by how well they spell the guy they're playing behind? Is it just by their name? How do you determine who has a good bench and who doesn't have one?

By how effectively they mesh with the team and their ability to maintain or grow a lead with starters on the bench.

[wwharton]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

OK but Howard off Orlando's bench? That wouldn't make much sense, as they don't even have a backup center.

Obviously you have to judge each team a bit differently. With Mike Miller starting at the 2, it would give a lot more flexibility to the starting lineup, and would make James the unrivaled leader of the offense. It would push Bosh to the true #2, which would also be a positive for his psyche and his involvement on both ends of the floor.

But yes, like I said it won't happen. Politics/PR wouldn't let it. Theoretically speaking it would make sense.

As far as James being clutch I don't think you need stats to prove my statement to be true. His clutch moments are well documented, but you're right it would be nice to have some proof. I don't have any nor do I know where to look, but just off the top of my head I can remember the past two seasons where he's been killing at the end of close games.

I threw Howard's name out there but it could be Kobe, Duncan, whoever you want. Clearly if you take one of the best players in the game and bring him off the bench, the 2nd team will be great. You still don't put a top 5 player in the NBA on the bench. If you have to then your team isn't built well. Digging deeper, what does "bring him off the bench" even mean? The Heat have no problem starting off games which is the only time when a player truly "comes off the bench". We're not talking about limiting his minutes so it wouldn't help with rest for either LBJ or Wade. If we're talking about limiting either's minutes in any way, it further says the team doesn't work as is. And for the record, I believe that's a stretch... the team is doing just fine with the pieces it has. I just don't think it's good enough to win the championship, and I definitely don't think bringing Wade off the bench will put them in a better place to win anything.

As for clutch, I've said it in many football discussions... being "clutch" involves opportunity and has a lot to do with perception. For example, on the Cavs, James was taking the last shot or passing to somebody wide open to take it... period. That makes it easier to forget the misses and remember the makes. On the Heat, there's at least one other player that deserves to touch the ball which makes it easier to remember the misses. Saying Lebron hasn't been clutch is a stretch, but there are a couple of options I'd choose to "make the decision" of the last possession before him... and in this case, he has one of them on his team.

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

James is second behind Kobe. Interesting to see Stat make such a high jump this year.

Nice pull, Pared. I'd focus more on % and attempts... I need to look at that closer. Can probably find a way to get what I'm looking for there.

In my opinion if you go back and look at all of their games that they've lost (when it was close). Easier is better. When they move the ball around. And get good looks. In the game they beat the Thunder. A lot of people look at Lebron James not taking that last shot as a bad thing. And passing the ball to a better 3pt shooter. For a way better look. By the way Wade missed the shot on that play as well.

And again with the whole LeBron not being clutch thing. Everyone seems to be focused on this seasons misses.

"You swing big. You miss big" - Kobe

In any situation easy is better. Not sure what you're arguing there. No one in here criticized James for passing the ball. The problem is I believe James is bothered by people that did... and bothered by people that say he can't make the big shot now... and bothered by people that say Wade should be taking the shots... etc. I want Wade with the ball because I think he has a better mental capacity to keep the team moving the ball and taking the good shot even in a pressure situation, no matter what anyone is saying. It's not like Lebron is an idiot or even a "choker" (sports term for idiot in the clutch) but his maturity has been rightfully challenged and his performance has been rightfully criticized in the clutch on a team that has another player that may be better suited for the role. AND (very important) James is more likely to make a play off of a Wade drive than vice versa imo. In fact, James can take every last shot on an assist from Wade. It's not the shots or misses that I'd be concerned with, it's the decisions (which lead to 1 on 5 ALL THE TIME).

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

Personally it's a combo of a lot of things when I judge benches.

Which pure skill does each specific player offer, are they a liability either offensively/defensively, can they be depended upon in big moments, could any of them be potential starters on other teams etc etc...

Outside of Miller, Miami has two one-dimensional spot up shooters who suck defensively [House/James], they have Big Z who is a good jump shooter and OK post presence defensively, but I wouldn't depend on him to play more than 15 minutes a game.

[Pared]

Re: The LeBron James Thread

... their ability to maintain or grow a lead with starters on the bench.

That's all it comes down to for me.

You can have a guy like JC come off the bench and drop 30... if the other team's bench scores 35 while he's in there with scrubs, doesn't make much of a difference.