Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

mvp voting isn't necesarily the best way to determine a player's actual performance relative to the rest of the league (malone winning over jordan, dirk winning, nash winning twice, etc.)

who should have won over Dirk that year and why

moses was also never considered in the running or thought to be on pace with being the best player of all-time. he also didn't completely facilitate that situation.

Moses Malone was a no brainer first ballot hall of famer...HOF'er means he is ONE OF the best of all time

Lebron isnt on pace or in the running for being "THE best player of all time" right now either btw

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

It's a pretty damn good determinate.

Nash may not have been better than Shaq in 2005 or Kobe and Lebron in 2006 but he was definitely a top 5 player. Same with Dirk and Kobe in 2007.

Dr. J had 21/7/4/1.5/1.8 on 52% shooting with the best center in the game taking shots. I doubt there was some conspiracy to get him awards. If you're top 5 in MVP voting and First Team All NBA, you're probably a top 5 player.

What do you mean by this?

He signed with Philly and then got Houston to trade him. That's "facilitating" the situation.

I'm not sure that he wasn't in any discussions for being one of the great ones. He was 26 with 2 MVPs and was averaging about 28 and 14.5 after his first season in the NBA. In his previous 4 seasons he led the league in rebounding 3 times and finished in the top 3 in scoring each year.

Moses was a good player but he was never even close to the best player in the game. Was he a great rebounder? Yes, truly great. But he couldn't pass a cold and wasn't capable of defending his lunch. The cherry on top is that he was a bad teammate who purposely passed up wide open teammates (which he clearly saw) to take his own shot.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

who should have won over Dirk that year and why

Moses Malone was a no brainer first ballot hall of famer...HOF'er means he is ONE OF the best of all time

Lebron isnt on pace or in the running for being "THE best player of all time" right now either btw

Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Steve Nash, and Chauncey Billups all meant more to their teams and had a greater sphere of influence at the time. Besides, if Nowitzki truly was the MVP that year then why was he bottled up by the inept Al Harrington? Why did he choke against a cupcake team like the Warriors?

There were 10-15 centers better than Moses Malone was.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Steve Nash, and Chauncey Billups all meant more to their teams and had a greater sphere of influence at the time.

yet if Dirk was contained or held below his averages, the Mavs usually lost because they had no one to sufficiently pick up the slack

that is pretty "valuable"

anyway, the MVP is voted before the playoffs and is a regular season award.

Besides, if Nowitzki truly was the MVP that year then why was he bottled up by the inept Al Harrington? Why did he choke against a cupcake team like the Warriors

It doesnt seem as though you watched that series. Dirk was "bottled up" and held to 19/10 with Don Nelson swarming him from all directions almost every time Nowitzki touched the ball. If you would have watched that series, you would realize that Dirk was not single covered much in that series at all...but of course, Stack, Terry, and JHo didnt make the Warriors pay for that strategy. You also had the rook Avery Johnson who was playing checkers while Don Nelson was playing chess.

regardless of Dirk's sub par performance, the main things that lost that series for Dallas was the Mavs lack of a point guard and their combo guards disappearing, not being able to guard Baron Davis or any of the Warriors guards on defense and not making the Warriors pay on offense. When Don Nelson was swarming and denying the isos to Dirk, the Mavs combo guards had no idea how to adjust and be creative in distributing the ball and neither did Avery.

There were 10-15 centers better than Moses Malone was.

I seriously doubt there are that many centers better than Malone and there arent 5 power forwards better

if there are, then list them

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

It's a pretty damn good determinate.

Nash may not have been better than Shaq in 2005 or Kobe and Lebron in 2006 but he was definitely a top 5 player. Same with Dirk and Kobe in 2007.

Dr. J had 21/7/4/1.5/1.8 on 52% shooting with the best center in the game taking shots. I doubt there was some conspiracy to get him awards. If you're top 5 in MVP voting and First Team All NBA, you're probably a top 5 player.

What do you mean by this?

He signed with Philly and then got Houston to trade him. That's "facilitating" the situation.

I'm not sure that he wasn't in any discussions for being one of the great ones. He was 26 with 2 MVPs and was averaging about 28 and 14.5 after his first season in the NBA. In his previous 4 seasons he led the league in rebounding 3 times and finished in the top 3 in scoring each year.

as for there being a conspiracy to get doctor j awards...um, i'm not going to say it was a full-fledged effort, but doctor j was arguably the biggest coup the nba had made in terms of signing a player with huge star potential and charisma. he had three mvps from the aba, but with those years (his best years) in the past, he had yet to show the same level of greatness. mind you, he was still awesome and still dropped jaws, but aba dr. j and nba dr. j were two different animals. so, for a guy with as much class, athleticism, grace and charisma as dr. j to be without an nba mvp wouldn't stand. i'm not saying they handed him his mvp, but there have been plenty of times a player gets an award because he's due.

dr. j's mvp season (1980 - 1981) - 25 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 2 spg, 2 bpg

that is the least mount of points per game in the last 40 years by a player who wasn't a very good defender or passer (steve nash, magic Johnson) sans karl malone's win in 98-99

other notable first teamers that year:
larry bird (in his 2nd year) - 21 ppg, 11 rpg, 6 apg, 2 spg, 1 bpg
kareem - 26 ppg, 10 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg, 3 bpg (first team all defense, as well)

as far as moses malone goes, at no time in his life was he considered to be one of the best basketball players ever. indeed, he was a great player, i'm by no means knocking him, but he was never mentioned as a potential g.o.a.t. before or after becoming a 76er.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Where does Moses rank overall now?

The thing is James may have never reached the heights the media and many fans projected for him. It is pretty clear that all the "Global Icon" and "first billion dollar athlete" talk means he either believed that hype too or bought into it 100%. There's no way to go back to see if Moses' situation was as similar in that regard (I don't remember it being that way but it's possible), but as of today all of those thoughts of being among the top few NBA players of all times are pretty much gone. He's lowered his ceiling. Maybe Moses did the same with his move or maybe his ceiling was lower all along... again, I don't remember. But either Moses isn't a good example to use for comparison or is a PERFECT example. Moses is an after thought when talking about the best centers of all times... not a thought at all when talking about the best players. And that's pretty much what anyone has been saying about James.

Where Moses ranks now is irrelevant.

Moses fell off pretty hard pretty early, plus as he was declining the great centers of the 80s and 90s were coming into their prime whereas the end of someone like Shaq's prime there was not another quality center in the league.

However, when Moses was traded he was certainly "great." In the previous four years he had two MVPs and was 26 years old. Obviously TMac didn't have an amazing career but it was a pretty big deal when arguably the second best player in the league and a two time scoring champ at age 24 was traded.

I seriously doubt there are that many centers better than Malone and there arent 5 power forwards better

if there are, then list them

I'm curious to see this too.

Obviously Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, and Russell, but after that he's going to have to stretch especially since he can't use Robinson or Ewing.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

who should have won over Dirk that year and why

Moses Malone was a no brainer first ballot hall of famer...HOF'er means he is ONE OF the best of all time

Lebron isnt on pace or in the running for being "THE best player of all time" right now either btw

dirk should not have won that award, which is further validated by their first round defeat. if he wasn't making shots, he had no effect on the game because he was not a defender, a creator or a rebounding force. indeed, he was the most valuable player on his team, but his value didn't supercede those of the players i mention below. for a player who only does one thing (score), he would need to do it at a level that more than outweighs the fact that he doesn't do much else (i.e. the year iverson won, the years nash won, etc.)

dirk - 25 ppg, 9 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg (average defense at best, but typically not someone who stops another good player)

duncan - 20 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 1 spg, 2 bpg (all-defensive first team)
kobe - 32 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 1 spg, 1 bpg (all-defensive first team)
nash - 19 ppg, 4 rpg, 12 apg, 1 spg, 0 bpg

as far as moses goes - i definitely agree that he was a first ball hall of famer, automatically. that's not my contention, because he certainly is an all-time great. my statement is that, at no time in his life, was he ever mentioned as being the best basketball player of all time. never did anyone think or strongly believe that he was or was going to be that.

[twl221]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I think a better title would be, "With Their Own Team." Obviously guys like Jordan and Kobe had help, but overall it was still their team. The Heat is Wade's team, not LeBron's.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

yet if Dirk is contained or held below his averages, the Mavs usually lose because they had no one to pick up the slack

that is pretty "valuable"

anyway, the MVP is given before the playoffs and is a regular season award.

It doesnt seem as though you watched that series. Dirk was "bottled up" and held to 19/10 with Don Nelson swarming him from all directions almost every time Nowitzki touched the ball. If you would have watched that series, you would realize that Dirk was not single covered much in that series at all...but of course, Stack, Terry, and JHo didnt make the Warriors pay for that strategy. You also had the rook Avery Johnson who was playing checkers while Don Nelson was playing chess.

regardless of Dirk's sub par performance, the main things that lost that series for Dallas was the Mavs lack of a point guard and their combo guards disappearing, not being able to guard Baron Davis or any of the Warriors guards

I seriously doubt there were that many centers better than Malone and there arent 5 power forwards better

if there are, then list them

The same held true for the previous 6 players mentioned. If they were not operating at peak efficiency their teams usually lost. Factor in that these players were better defenders, passers, and clutch players than Nowitzki was. Sure, he was a great scorer but Kobe, Wade, and Duncan were even better scorers.
I personally can't stand the MVP award and believe that it should not be awarded until after the playoffs (if it has to be awarded at all that is).

Held below his averages? He tallied 19.7 ppg when he was averaging 24 ppg in the regular season. His 50 fg % in the regular season plummeted to 39 %. His three point % dipped from 41 % to 21 %. That isn't just being held below an average. That is an unprecedented choke job the likes of which the NBA has never seen before.

Undersized players like Harrington and Barnes have no business defending him (much less sticking him in a bottle). And when he had an open shot (especially in the clutch) he would brick it. Did you actually think players like Terry, Stackhouse, and Howard would come through? Of course not. They never were and never will be good enough. It is the superstar's responsiblity to be the driving force on the way to a title (IE Dirk). He didn't get it done, plain and simple.

Avery Johnson made the mistake of resting his starters the day before the season ended in a game against Golden State. It was a wimpy move. He also never really made any real adjustments to free up Nowitzki. Finally, his changing of the lineup sent a powerful and negative message to his players.

Dirk's pathetic performance is the main reason why the Mavericks lost. Baron Davis looked like more of an MVP than Dirk did, to be honest.

I'll put your doubts to rest by listing the centers and power forwards better than Malone.

Centers: Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon, Nate Thurmond, Bill Walton, Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, David Robinson, Bob Lanier

Power Forwards: Tim Duncan, Kevin McHale, Dave Debusschere, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, James Worthy, Bobby Jones

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I'm curious to see this too.

Obviously Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Kareem, and Russell, but after that he's going to have to stretch especially since he can't use Robinson or Ewing.

lol 15? Large stretch indeed

any center he lists besides those five will be arguable

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

dirk should not have won that award, which is further validated by their first round defeat. if he wasn't making shots, he had no effect on the game because he was not a defender, a creator or a rebounding force. indeed, he was the most valuable player on his team, but his value didn't supercede those of the players i mention below. for a player who only does one thing (score), he would need to do it at a level that more than outweighs the fact that he doesn't do much else (i.e. the year iverson won, the years nash won, etc.)

yet Dirk is one of 5 players in the history of the NBA to average at least 25 ppg AND 10 rebounds in his playoff career (Dirk averages 25.5 ppg and 11 rpg in the playoffs). The other four players are Shaq, Hakeem, Elgin Baylor, and Bob Petitt...all HOF'ers and a future HOF'er

as far as moses goes - i definitely agree that he was a first ball hall of famer, automatically. that's not my contention, because he certainly is an all-time great. my statement is that, at no time in his life, was he ever mentioned as being the best basketball player of all time.

neither is Lebron

never did anyone think or strongly believe that he was or was going to be that.

how do you know? If you were around during that era, im sure you could have found some folks who believed that. He really wasnt truly THE best ever, but that doesnt mean that he wasnt one of the GOAT. There has been a small handful of players to be considered for THE greatest to ever play. Lebron isnt one of those handful right now either.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I seriously doubt there are that many centers better than Malone and there arent 5 power forwards better

if there are, then list them

wilt chamberlain, bill russell, shaquille o'neal, kareem abdul-jabbar, hakeem olajuwon are clearly better.

where you rank moses amongst bill walton, david robinson, patrick ewing, robert parish, willis reed, wes unseld, bob petit and george mikan is up to you. i don't necesarily agree that there are 10-15 better centers, since that position isn't exactly a hotbed for unquestionable greatness, but there's a case to be made for everyone i listed.

[The15thunter]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

yet Dirk is one of 5 players in the history of the NBA to average at least 25 ppg AND 10 rebounds in his playoff career (Dirk averages 25.5 ppg and 11 rpg in the playoffs). The other four players are Shaq, Hakeem, Elgin Baylor, and Bob Petitt...all HOF'ers and a future HOF'er



neither is Lebron



how do you know? If you were around during that era, im sure you could have found some folks who believed that. He really wasnt, but that doesnt mean that he wasnt one of the GOAT. There has been a small handful of players to be considered for THE greatest to ever play. Lebron isnt one of those handful right now either.

i'm not saying dirk isn't a great player, and i think he's hall of fame bound. but that doesn't mean he was the mvp that season or any other season.

lebron was considered by many to have the ability to stake a claim to being one of the all-time greats, though most educated people figure it's highly improbable anyone will ever top russell and michael. lebron was on pace to make it a conversation and argument worth having, which i'm saying moses never did.

i guess you're mistaking my use of g.o.a.t. really, there have only been a few g.o.a.t's. people have been able to argue oscar, kareem, russell, wilt, magic, bird, and jordan. outside of them, everyone else is great, but those are the guys who have been in the position to be talked about as possibly the best person to ever play professional basketball. moses malone was never in that type of company in terms of being mentioned in that conversation. he can be talked about with all the other great players that aren't on that list, but he can not, has not and will not ever be held in the same regard as those gentlemen.

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

wilt chamberlain, bill russell, shaquille o'neal, kareem abdul-jabbar, hakeem olajuwon are clearly better.

where you rank moses amongst bill walton, david robinson, patrick ewing, robert parish, willis reed, wes unseld, bob petit and george mikan is up to you. i don't necesarily agree that there are 10-15 better centers, since that position isn't exactly a hotbed for unquestionable greatness, but there's a case to be made for everyone i listed.

Walton's passing ability was far superior to Malone. He was unselfish and didn't need to force the shots that Malone did. He was also a good rebounder although he wasn't as good as Malone.

Robinson had much quicker feet, was a quicker and more explosive jumper, and was a better weak side shot blocker.

Parrish and Ewing were choke artists of the highest order and have no business on any 'greatest' list. Malone was better than those two were (not saying much).

Unseld did all the dirty work, was the greatest outlet passer of all time, and was strong as an ox.

Willis Reed's courage propelled the Knicks to greatness.

Petit and Mikan were most likely better players than Malone was. However, I only listed players whose games I had a firm grasp on.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

The same held true for the previous 6 players mentioned. If they were not operating at peak efficiency their teams usually lost. Factor in that these players were better defenders, passers, and clutch players than Nowitzki was. Sure, he was a great scorer but Kobe, Wade, and Duncan were even better scorers.
I personally can't stand the MVP award and believe that it should not be awarded until after the playoffs (if it has to be awarded at all that is).

Held below his averages? He tallied 19.7 ppg when he was averaging 24 ppg in the regular season. His 50 fg % in the regular season plummeted to 39 %. His three point % dipped from 41 % to 21 %. That isn't just being held below an average. That is an unprecedented choke job the likes of which the NBA has never seen before.

Undersized players like Harrington and Barnes have no business defending him (much less sticking him in a bottle). And when he had an open shot (especially in the clutch) he would brick it. Did you actually think players like Terry, Stackhouse, and Howard would come through? Of course not. They never were and never will be good enough. It is the superstar's responsiblity to be the driving force on the way to a title (IE Dirk). He didn't get it done, plain and simple.

Avery Johnson made the mistake of resting his starters the day before the season ended in a game against Golden State. It was a wimpy move. He also never really made any real adjustments to free up Nowitzki. Finally, his changing of the lineup sent a powerful and negative message to his players.

Dirk's pathetic performance is the main reason why the Mavericks lost. Baron Davis looked like more of an MVP than Dirk did, to be honest.

I do wonder if you actually watched that series

anyway, if you want to change the criteria of the MVP, and use hindsight to include the playoffs...then Tim Duncan should have won it that season. You mention DWhistle and Kobe, DW played in 50 games that season and Kobe didnt do any better than Dirk in the playoffs THAT season

but that isnt how it works. MVP has always been a regular season award. There is an MVP awarded for the finals and Duncan won that.