Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I bet your response to that video is Dirk shouldnt have fouled Wade on the play, its a sign of bad leadership. Wade drawing a foul on Dirk there is "clutch"

It was clear contact. The refs established that the game would be called tightly from the opening tip. It was consistent with the calls made throughout the game.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

It was clear contact. The refs established that the game would be called tightly from the opening tip. It was consistent with the calls made throughout the game.

lol wow. Are you being serious right now or is my hyperbole meter turned off?

[AlexBrady]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

lol wow. Are you being serious right now or is my hyperbole meter turned off?

Consistency is all that you can ask for from the refs. I would also cool it on the excuses if I were you ZB.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Consistency is all that you can ask for from the refs. I would also cool it on the excuses if I were you ZB.

Well that call was certainly "consistent" with how they were calling the series for the Heat. That is for sure. That call was a microcosm of the series.

most one sided WWE BS ive ever seen in American sports

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

First, can we stop this from turning into a Dirk thread. Z, we know how you like to defend your players to the death but whether or not Dirk should've been MVP is SO far off track of this topic, it's not even funny. Please just agree to disagree and keep it moving.

Where Moses ranks now is irrelevant.

Moses fell off pretty hard pretty early, plus as he was declining the great centers of the 80s and 90s were coming into their prime whereas the end of someone like Shaq's prime there was not another quality center in the league.

However, when Moses was traded he was certainly "great." In the previous four years he had two MVPs and was 26 years old. Obviously TMac didn't have an amazing career but it was a pretty big deal when arguably the second best player in the league and a two time scoring champ at age 24 was traded.

Where Moses ranks now is very relevant. Anyone that says Lebron has destroyed his legacy is talking about how he'll be viewed 20 years from now, so if we're comparing Moses' playing career to Lebron's then comparing how he's looked at today to how Lebron will be looked at 20 years from now is right on point.

If Lebron is considered about the level that Moses is now considered, he would've had a very nice, HOF career. But until about a week ago, the ceiling on his potential was much higher.

lebron was considered by many to have the ability to stake a claim to being one of the all-time greats, though most educated people figure it's highly improbable anyone will ever top russell and michael. lebron was on pace to make it a conversation and argument worth having, which i'm saying moses never did.

i guess you're mistaking my use of g.o.a.t. really, there have only been a few g.o.a.t's. people have been able to argue oscar, kareem, russell, wilt, magic, bird, and jordan. outside of them, everyone else is great, but those are the guys who have been in the position to be talked about as possibly the best person to ever play professional basketball. moses malone was never in that type of company in terms of being mentioned in that conversation. he can be talked about with all the other great players that aren't on that list, but he can not, has not and will not ever be held in the same regard as those gentlemen.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. And if Moses was in that conversation back then, something happened that dropped him out of it and maybe it was leaving to go play with another star. Who knows? I've never heard anyone say he was ever considered in that group though, and plenty of people have said Lebron had the potential to be in that group, even without winning a ring yet (especially since he was currently only a year off MJ's pace).

Malone was probably in some of those conversations also when he entered the league...

my point was that if it can be argued that there are 15 better pivots than Malone...then arguments could be made for 15 better wings than Lebron

I dont actually think there are 15 better wings than Lebron

It's not about where Lebron ranks now (even though right now you still couldn't name 15 wings legitimately better). It seems the thought in his mind is just the rings are stopping him from being on track to be an all time great. The truth is his potential made it seems he could beat the odds while winning the rings. His comparisons to MJ aren't just about the pipe dream he'd end up better but that he'd take a traditional loser, strap them on his back and take them to greatness like MJ did. He said that's what he wanted... he's 25 so there's little reason to think it wasn't still possible, even with all of his immature actions to this point. All of that is over now, and he made a decision to end it. That says a lot and is what everyone is reacting to. The hate and overreactions are a bit much, but the majority are likely just disappointed he gave up on the possibility and dream he said he had.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

First, can we stop this from turning into a Dirk thread. Z, we know how you like to defend your players to the death but whether or not Dirk should've been MVP is SO far off track of this topic, it's not even funny. Please just agree to disagree and keep it moving.

I didnt bring it up but dont you worry about what I reply to wwharton. As far as your "homer" comment, threads could do without those sorts of comments, especially from someone who similarly discusses certain players from your teams that you have seen play more than most have.

However, I tend to like to debate and/or refute your specific points and facts that you present instead of playing the "homer" card. You might try the same. Try to refute my specific points without utilizing the homer card and I wont play the "*****" card. If you dont want to debate my points, then just dont reply at all.

Anyway, read the title of the thread and the original post. Discussing Dirk's career in Dallas is not so off topic...but again, I didnt bring him into this thread, just asked a question to someone who did.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Where Moses ranks now is very relevant. Anyone that says Lebron has destroyed his legacy is talking about how he'll be viewed 20 years from now, so if we're comparing Moses' playing career to Lebron's then comparing how he's looked at today to how Lebron will be looked at 20 years from now is right on point.

If Lebron is considered about the level that Moses is now considered, he would've had a very nice, HOF career. But until about a week ago, the ceiling on his potential was much higher.

But Moses doesn't rank lower because he played with Dr. J. He ranks lower because he regressed every year after age 27.

After he won the MVP and Finals MVP he only finished in the single digits of MVP voting once.

If Lebron regresses at age 27 he wasn't going to be considered the GOAT anyway.

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

I didnt bring it up but dont you worry about what I reply to wwharton. As far as your "homer" comment, threads could do without those sorts of comments, especially from someone who similarly discusses players from your teams that you have seen play more than most have.

However, I tend to like to debate and/or refute your specific points and facts that you present instead of playing the "homer" card. You might try the same. Try to refute my specific points without utilizing the homer card. You havent seen me play the "*****" card

Anyway, read the title of the thread and the original post. If you think discussing Dirk's career in Dallas is so much more off topic than every other post in this thread, including the Moses Malone posts, then I dont think you understand what the topic is.

Damn, dude. Go take a walk or something.

First, I didn't call you a homer or even user the word homer. What I said was you like to defender your players to death, and it's a fact you can't deny. I didn't say you were right or wrong. My point is it seems like the last 50 posts have been littered with talk of whether or not Dirk deserved to win the MVP. It doesn't matter who brought it up, I was asking (nicely) if you guys could move on. And the Moses discussion is directly related to Lebron's legacy and the thought that a player should stay with a team to "try to win on their own". The Dirk comment was a throw in on a post. Not saying you shouldn't have responded... just asking if we can let it go now.

So with that said, can we?

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

But Moses doesn't rank lower because he played with Dr. J. He ranks lower because he regressed every year after age 27.

After he won the MVP and Finals MVP he only finished in the single digits of MVP voting once.

If Lebron regresses at age 27 he wasn't going to be considered the GOAT anyway.

As for Lebron, that's true if that happened... but he bounced before we'd ever know.

As for Moses, who knows? Seriously, I don't think anyone ever considered him on track to be better than Wilt, Kareem or Russell so he was already playing at the level he would be defined at when his career ended. But even if they did feel he was THAT good, how do we know when that thought went away? And how do we know his regression didn't come from the move? Personally, I think he was at a place where chasing a ring made more sense than the situation Lebron was in.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

What I said was you like to defender your players to death, and it's a fact you can't deny.

Not all of them. some of the players on teams I follow im obviously critical of and some of them I trash. You harp on two of the players that I have "defended" quite a bit, probably because those two players dont fit their "molds" in their respective sports and therefore get more hate and more incorrect statements than they should. I dont know, perhaps I like folks in sports and elsewhere that dont always fit the mold but get the job done anyway?

if someone says something that is incorrect about a player that I am extremely knowledgeable about, then I will debate, and it makes sense that I would be more knowledgeable about players and teams who ive watched 90 percent of their games...same with you and Ravens players, that I see you debating about all of the time, because you watch all of their games and are also often more interested in those players. If im just debating as a homer, then it should be pretty easy to refute the points and facts that I bring up

This is a sports message board. Discussing players and teams is what it's about

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Not all of them. some of the players on teams I follow im obviously critical of and some of them I trash. You harp on two of the players that I have "defended" quite a bit, probably because those two players dont fit their "molds" in their respective sports and therefore get more hate and more incorrect statements than they should. I dont know, perhaps I like folks in sports and elsewhere that dont always fit the mold?

if someone says something that is incorrect about a player that I am extremely knowledgeable about, then I will debate, and it makes sense that I would be more knowledgeable about players and teams who ive watched 90 percent of their games...same with you and Ravens players, that I see you debating about all of the time, because you watch all of their games and are also often more interested in those players. If im just debating as a homer, then it should be pretty easy to refute the points and facts that I bring up

this is a sports message board. Discussing players and teams is what it's about

Seriously, do me a favor... go back through this thread and see how many comments I've made one way or another about Dirk. Then tell me how I "harp" on you defending him.

Like I said, I can understand you replying to the post about him. I just asked (everyone talking about Dirk, not just you) if we could get back on topic bc it was starting to take over the thread. I have NO idea why you're so sensitive right now. I could care less about Dirk winning the MVP that year and don't think it's on topic. I don't think I was being a dick when I asked if you all could agree to disagree either.

Let me add that the line about you defending your players to death was a little shot, but I was quite sure you had tough enough skin to realize that's all it was. So take that part out of my post and read it again. You're taking this waaaaaay too personally.

[Cebby]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

As for Lebron, that's true if that happened... but he bounced before we'd ever know.

As for Moses, who knows? Seriously, I don't think anyone ever considered him on track to be better than Wilt, Kareem or Russell so he was already playing at the level he would be defined at when his career ended.

He had 3 MVPs and a Finals MVP at age 27.

Only Kareem can match that. I don't know if he was actually in "GOAT" contention, but I'd have to assume someone thought about it.

And how do we know his regression didn't come from the move?

Because the first year of the move he won the MVP and Finals MVP.

[ZB9]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

Seriously, do me a favor... go back through this thread and see how many comments I've made one way or another about Dirk. Then tell me how I "harp" on you defending him.

Like I said, I can understand you replying to the post about him. I just asked (everyone talking about Dirk, not just you) if we could get back on topic bc it was starting to take over the thread. I have NO idea why you're so sensitive right now. I could care less about Dirk winning the MVP that year and don't think it's on topic. I don't think I was being a dick when I asked if you all could agree to disagree either.

lol seems like you are the one being sensitive, getting so annoyed by who im discussing. Im just bored and talking sports.

I dont care if you agree with my points or not. It's just irritating having the homer police calling me out on a sports message board. If you dont want to discuss my points, then simply dont reply. Let the mods determine if something is too far off topic or not. You dont see me telling people to stop talking about something because im annoyed at their homerism.

Let me add that the line about you defending your players to death was a little shot, but I was quite sure you had tough enough skin to realize that's all it was. So take that part out of my post and read it again. You're taking this waaaaaay too personally.

I didnt take anything personally Wharton, but if you are going to take a shot you have to be willing to get a response

dont worry though. I wont start calling you a homer every time you discuss a Ravens player. Its all good. Im full of crap btw you should know that.

[wwharton]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

lol seems like you are the one being sensitive, getting so annoyed by who im discussing. Im just bored and talking sports.

I dont care if you agree with my points or not. It's just irritating having the homer police calling me out on a sports message board. If you dont want to discuss my points, then simply dont reply. Let the mods determine if something is too far off topic or not. You dont see me telling people to stop talking about something because im annoyed at their homerism.

I didnt take anything personally Wharton, but if you are going to take a shot you have to be willing to get a response

dont worry though. I wont start calling you a homer every time you discuss a Ravens player. Its all good. Im full of crap btw you should know that.

You can call me a homer all you want. I'm not sure what thread that'd be relevant in but knock yourself out. Before you do though, I'm still waiting for you to show me where I called you one. I mean since that's the center of your whole point here, where did I call you a homer?

I also didn't say anything about agreeing or disagreeing with you. I just made a simple request... I see you ignored my entire last post so I guess you went from going on and on about Dirk to going on and on about me asking if we can stop talking about Dirk. Nice work.

[23]

Re: Exactly when has a player won a chip "on their own"?

ZB with the Dirk talk again and the refs

I guess with all of the "disadvantages" that Dirk has had, he proved the point of this thread, you cant win it alone right? Right