who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Wait a minute, I definitely didn't read the last two replies thoroughly enough.

You guys slay me.

First of all once again, jeebs, you saying "he's playing the same way he did in Memphis, nothing really changed". That is one of the most shortsighted comments I've read in a while. That's not even funny

Second, JBH did you really just say teams don't key in to stop Pau? I'm done here

[JBH3]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

You guys are funny.

Pau is nowhere near the player he was in Memphis.

Fact: Pau never touched a weight in his life until he was traded to Los Angeles. His defense and rebounding ability were purely off of his athleticism.

The guy you see now is pretty much the most fundamental and well-rounded big man in the world outside of Tim Duncan-- which he is on his way out as a cream of the crop player.

Also Jeebs, your point sort of goes along with my point. You put Dirk and Pau in a pretty good supporting cast and I'll take Pau's team every time. He simply brings more to the table at this point in time. Pau's team in my eyes has a chance to go further than Dirk's team would due to all the things previously mentioned: post offense, rebounding on both sides of the floor and post defense.

Wait a minute, I definitely didn't read the last two replies thoroughly enough.

You guys slay me.

First of all once again, jeebs, you saying "he's playing the same way he did in Memphis, nothing really changed". That is one of the most shortsighted comments I've read in a while. That's not even funny

Second, JBH did you really just say teams don't key in to stop Pau? I'm done here

^ To all of the above:

The only trend I see in Pau's game coming from MEM to LAL is an increase in efficiency. That wouldn't have anything to do w/ Kobe would it? I'm sure D's were more focused on Posey/Miller and didn't hound Gasol right?

One year of a double-digit rebounding total is supposed to mean he's a better rebounder? So the Lakers finishing #18 in the league in FG% didn't (at least help) account for his career high avg in OREBs? Odom, Bynum, Artest, and Kobe being better rebounders/better at boxing out didn't affect the rate in which Pau would secure a Def. board?

So now Pau is the heir apparent to Timmy D's throne? to you.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

1. I never said anyone was Duncan's heir apparent, where did that come from?. Stop it.

2. If you haven't taken notice over the past two title years for LA, Pau is basically playing Kobe's role to Shaq for their first three titles, if not more.

Pau's defensive abilities have improved drastically since he's come over from the Grizz. They pretty much didn't even have Andrew for their first title, so Pau was depended upon to take on much of the rebounding and defensive load.

This past year you certainly should have noticed his effectiveness on the boards.

At this point you're simply grasping for anything. You continue to post stats, that really say nothing.

Yes he is a better rebounder, like I said, he never touched a weight in his life. After he got trounced and embarassed by Boston in 2008, he and Laker staff went on a workout tear. After they won in 2009, he credited his improved strength to his summer workouts.

You saying Pau is a potentially a 3rd wheel makes me wonder how much you really know about the guy outside of all of these useless stats you post.

[JBH3]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

1. I never said anyone was Duncan's heir apparent, where did that come from?. Stop it.

What does this mean?

The guy you see now is pretty much the most fundamental and well-rounded big man in the world outside of Tim Duncan-- which he is on his way out as a cream of the crop player.

2. If you haven't taken notice over the past two title years for LA, Pau is basically playing Kobe's role to Shaq for their first three titles, if not more.

Pau's defensive abilities have improved drastically since he's come over from the Grizz. They pretty much didn't even have Andrew for their first title, so Pau was depended upon to take on much of the rebounding and defensive load. This past year you certainly should have noticed his effectiveness on the boards. At this point you're simply grasping for anything. You continue to post stats, that really say nothing. Yes he is a better rebounder, like I said, he never touched a weight in his life. After he got trounced and embarassed by Boston in 2008, he and Laker staff went on a workout tear. After they won in 2009, he credited his improved strength to his summer workouts. You saying Pau is a potentially a 3rd wheel makes me wonder how much you really know about the guy outside of all of these useless stats you post.

3rd wheel? No. 2nd wheel? Definitely. Equally offensively capable as Dirk? Hell No. Better defensively? Not by much. Better rebounder? One notable year.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

The evolution of the skills of the big man is a great thing, but the numbers and excitement of big perimeter performances have gotten people a little twisted up in the head. The best big men are dominant in the paint on both sides of the floor. They grab boards, finish plays, initimidate opposing perimeter players from scoring in the paint, and are able to draw a double team in the post. If your big man cannot do the above, he is not an elite "big." He might be a great player in his own little way, but at the end of the day, playoff games come down to stops, rebounds and forcing the opposition to make tough plays outside of the paint.


If you're putting your team together, you don't traditionally need your power forward shooting threes and fadeaways around 17ft. It's much easier to find a guard who can do that, and have your big do the aforementioned paint oriented things.


Dirk is not an elite player. He's not a great player. He's a very good player. Pau is also a very good player. Dirk is higher on the very good player scale then Pau, but Pau fits better into the overall team concept. Little guys outside, big guys inside. Big guys outside is good for a wrinkle, but not the fabric of an offense.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

All it means is Pau is the most well-rounded big man in the game outside of Duncan.

How does that equate to me saying Pau is the heir apparent to him? Duncan is arguably the best PF to ever lace em up. Pau is a one of kind talent but Duncan's legacy has its own category.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

The evolution of the skills of the big man is a great thing, but the numbers and excitement of big perimeter performances have gotten people a little twisted up in the head. The best big men are dominant in the paint on both sides of the floor. They grab boards, finish plays, initimidate opposing perimeter players from scoring in the paint, and are able to draw a double team in the post. If your big man cannot do the above, he is not an elite "big." He might be a great player in his own little way, but at the end of the day, playoff games come down to stops, rebounds and forcing the opposition to make tough plays outside of the paint.


If you're putting your team together, you don't traditionally need your power forward shooting threes and fadeaways around 17ft. It's much easier to find a guard who can do that, and have your big do the aforementioned paint oriented things.


Dirk is not an elite player. He's not a great player. He's a very good player. Pau is also a very good player. Dirk is higher on the very good player scale then Pau, but Pau fits better into the overall team concept. Little guys outside, big guys inside. Big guys outside is good for a wrinkle, but not the fabric of an offense.

Dirk was an elite player 4 years ago.

As I said, today they are both very different, obviously, than they were years back.

Today Pau simply lends to further success towards a title because of his versatility.

Could Dirk go over and play the 5 like Pau has had to and get a title?

Hell no. And that answers the question about defensive comparisons on the boards and in the post. So I don't care what kind of numbers anyone puts up because Pau is tough enough to play both big positions and Dirk isn't.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

2. If you haven't taken notice over the past two title years for LA, Pau is basically playing Kobe's role to Shaq for their first three titles, if not more.

Whoa there, sailor. Kobe was a closer on that team. He dismantled Sacto and San Antonio more than once. He was the get outta jail free card for HackaShaq. Kobe averaged 30/7/6 and 27/6/5 in the playoffs during their 2nd two chips. Those are MVP numbers on any other team. Pau isn't close to that.

That having been said, I agree with you that Pau changed dramatically after joining the Lakers. It's not his numbers, but his defense and overall toughness. It's a very big and obvious intangible when you see him maintain position on offense and defense. Also, he Odom and Bynum combine for a very, very tough interior resistance in every conceivable way. He wasn't that player in Memphis. Also, it wasn't possible for him to be the same player in Memphis, because they didn't have the personnel to benefit from his passing. There was no Odom, Ariza or Bynum to finish plays, and obviously no Kobe to start/finish plays.

EDIT: There is no argument when it comes to Duncan being the best PF. He fits every criteria and matched up against who most people consider to be #2 in Karl Malone.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Either way my point was there's no way Pau is a potential 3rd wheel like JBH alluded to.

Pau has had several disgusting series over the past few years too, no need for me to post the numbers.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Either way my point was there's no way Pau is a potential 3rd wheel like JBH alluded to.

Pau has had several disgusting series over the past few years too, no need for me to post the numbers.

Those Kobe numbers aren't from one series, they're from the entire playoffs. We're getting into semantics though. We both essentially agree on the pertinent discussion. Saying Pau is the big man version of a young Kobe is inaccurate though. By the 2nd championship, Kobe was a first option as well as Shaq, which is why they were so dominant. Pau is not a first option. He's a 2nd option. I think he's a better 2nd option than Dirk is a 1st option, which is why I'd take him. Pau is better at his role. To say that Pau is playing Kobe's former role is stretching it though.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Yeah just because Kob was entering his prime during the last two titles, so the two are not equal. No argument here.

[JBH3]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

The evolution of the skills of the big man is a great thing, but the numbers and excitement of big perimeter performances have gotten people a little twisted up in the head. The best big men are dominant in the paint on both sides of the floor. They grab boards, finish plays, initimidate opposing perimeter players from scoring in the paint, and are able to draw a double team in the post. If your big man cannot do the above, he is not an elite "big." He might be a great player in his own little way, but at the end of the day, playoff games come down to stops, rebounds and forcing the opposition to make tough plays outside of the paint.


If you're putting your team together, you don't traditionally need your power forward shooting threes and fadeaways around 17ft. It's much easier to find a guard who can do that, and have your big do the aforementioned paint oriented things.


Dirk is not an elite player. He's not a great player. He's a very good player. Pau is also a very good player. Dirk is higher on the very good player scale then Pau, but Pau fits better into the overall team concept. Little guys outside, big guys inside. Big guys outside is good for a wrinkle, but not the fabric of an offense.

I like what you've said, but I think Dirk gets down played on these boards BIG time, and a discussion over Pau being as good or better than Dirk is case in point.

****...Up until last year, Dirk was avg'ing a playoff double double of 25 and 10. In 6 playoff games he was: 54%/57%/95%....yet that is glazed over, because he's a wrinkle player....? That's insanely efficient, and far from a nice to have luxury player aspect.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Dirk is the most under-appreciated player probably on OS. Like you know how certain athletes get excuses, free passes, etc(Vick, Iverson, Lebron(?)Dirk is the opposite of those dudes. That's one of the things I've learned from my time here on OS lol.

[KG]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Give me Dirk as a #1 for the simple fact that I've seen him do it better than Gasol when he was with Memphis.

[slimm44]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Give me Dirk as a #1 for the simple fact that I've seen him do it better than Gasol when he was with Memphis.

This. Ill take the Guy who took his team to the finals as the indisputable leader of his team over the Guy who hasn't.