who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I was just going to leave it alone but then certain people came back and said things about stats etc. etc.

But yeah there's not much more to talk about here, unless someone else brings up other points.

The poll spoke and the people spoke, well a few did. Others decided to be too cool and just chime in with a "DIrk all the way, he's so underrated on OS" type comment. Which is fine, but it would have been cool to see other points introduced for either side.

[dossier]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I think stats are all good and stuff but you guys are reading too much into them, and I'm on your side. It's obvious by watching him play that he is an extremely valuable and skillfull player. Pau's rebounding numbers should be higher but he has to battle with bynum, odom, bryant, and even artest, and he still gets 11 rebounds last year. He's obviously the better rebounder and by a good enough amount. His game is nearly unstoppable12-14 feet in which is necessary to help create space for perimeter players. And he nearly had a block on dirk. The guy has the complete game with a similar style to Tim Duncan.

However, Dirk draws alot more attention on the offensive end, making offense much easier for his team. Opponents game plan to make sure he gets around 24 points. This guy is getting his. He is also pretty clutch. In addition his style exploits opponents by taking them out of their comfortable spots. He can lead a team as experience shows and he makes his teams better than they probably should be. Let's be honest he was robbed of his title and his team are ALWAYS good, and he hasn't always had the best of talent comparatively. The guy is a workhorse and a winner, and thats why I pick him.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I agree with most of your post dossier.

With all the shiny numbers Dirk's put up over the past several seasons, he's been bounced in the first round 3 of the last 4 years. Sort of goes along with what I've been saying: he puts up great numbers but to have that style of play and being the go to player on top of it maybe doesn't translate to championship basketball.

Goes back to me saying 'OK I can understand how individually yeah Dirk>Pau' but who would I rather have? It's a strange scenario.

Now maybe he hasn't had the greatest support cast but this year will be a great chance for Dallas. I mean really, this is a great opportunity for them to advance through the playoffs. Chandler/Haywood as his bigs, JKidd should be comfy with Dirk by now, and wings Butler/Marion/Terry you can't ask for much better than that. With this team if they stay healthy they should at least be able to move out of the first round.

[dossier]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Definitely agree, if he is going to do anything, he is going to do it this year. I think I had them as second to the lakers in the regular season. If this team loses, odds are its because of J. Kidd on defense. This should be a really good ball club, I wouldn't be surprised to see them finish with the best record in the west if the lakers pull a san antonio.

[SoTheoretical]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I'd take Pau over Dirk so quick, it wouldn't even be funny.

[slimm44]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I was just going to leave it alone but then certain people came back and said things about stats etc. etc.

But yeah there's not much more to talk about here, unless someone else brings up other points.

The poll spoke and the people spoke, well a few did. Others decided to be too cool and just chime in with a "DIrk all the way, he's so underrated on OS" type comment. Which is fine, but it would have been cool to see other points introduced for either side.

The problem isn't that the conversation has been lacking points from "the other side", meaning the Dirk supporters, it's that regardless of how those points are brought up there are some people who absolutely won't accept them due to them not passing the "eye test" or some other completely subjective analysis. The thing is, THAT'S WHY STATS ARE THERE! If I think that player A is a better 3pt shooter than player B, and you can prove that player B is better by using stats, I admit that I'm wrong and start touting player B as the better shooter. For some reason, that doesn't happen in our discussions. Instead, opinions trump fact because stats are easily dismissed.

Every statistic brought up for Dirk (and for players in the mid-range thread) has been backed by knowledgeable subjective analysis as well, but if that opinion goes against the grain, it's ridiculed. It's not about convincing somebody else that they're wrong and we're right, either. It's the frustration that comes from being told that our opinions are ridiculous, regardless of how much fact we use and how much it makes sense, that pulls us back into the debate. At least that's where I'm at with it.

I may be wrong, but it seems like there's a lot of homerism in the statement of "Dirk is a better player, but I'd take Pau anyway." If you're picking a player to win, you pick the best player. Some people have already stated that Dirk is a better player, but they would still rather have Pau. SMH.

[JBH3]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

I think stats are all good and stuff but you guys are reading too much into them, and I'm on your side. It's obvious by watching him play that he is an extremely valuable and skillfull player. Pau's rebounding numbers should be higher but he has to battle with bynum, odom, bryant, and even artest, and he still gets 11 rebounds last year. He's obviously the better rebounder and by a good enough amount. His game is nearly unstoppable12-14 feet in which is necessary to help create space for perimeter players. And he nearly had a block on dirk. The guy has the complete game with a similar style to Tim Duncan.

(Stats) Reading too much into them? That's a statement made by folks sometimes unwilling to accept the black and white nature of them.

Kidd/Marion/Dampier/Howard Cumulative RPGs: 31.50 rpg
Bynum/Artest/Bryant/Odom Cumulative RPGs: 25.90

So that alone would tell me that Dirk's boards are harder to come by. Add to the fact that the Lakers were 18th in the league in FG% in 09-10 alone, and more missed shots equals more offensive rebound opportunity's for LAs bigs.

There still hasn't been a suitable response from Ex or Born about this idea that Pau is a better passer than Dirk, when in 16 more games Dirk had the same assist total as Gasol in 09-10, and only 6 more turnovers + is the #1 option on his team when Gasol is clearly #2.

There's been no response to the blatant fact that, regardless if folks think Dirk is soft, the dude is playing AT LEAST 76 games a year, and Gasol is maybe getting you 65.

[dossier]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

(Stats) Reading too much into them? That's a statement made by folks sometimes unwilling to accept the black and white nature of them.

Kidd/Marion/Dampier/Howard Cumulative RPGs: 31.50 rpg
Bynum/Artest/Bryant/Odom Cumulative RPGs: 25.90

So that alone would tell me that Dirk's boards are harder to come by. Add to the fact that the Lakers were 18th in the league in FG% in 09-10 alone, and more missed shots equals more offensive rebound opportunity's for LAs bigs.

There still hasn't been a suitable response from Ex or Born about this idea that Pau is a better passer than Dirk, when in 16 more games Dirk had the same assist total as Gasol in 09-10, and only 6 more turnovers + is the #1 option on his team when Gasol is clearly #2.

There's been no response to the blatant fact that, regardless if folks think Dirk is soft, the dude is playing AT LEAST 76 games a year, and Gasol is maybe getting you 65.

no I'm not because nothing is black and white, its a fact that stats can be used to prove anything to anybody. I'm not saying there never useful, but sometimes you have to trust yourself and your knowledge of basketball in addition to the stats. You wouldn't know by the numbers that Kendrick Perkins is a great "modern" center.

And look at Dirk's career numbers, he has never averaged 10 rebounds in a season when Gasol just got 11 last year and consistently averaged more rebounds then dirk. As of now Dirk simply isn't as good of a rebounder.

You only have to look at slimm's mid-range argument to see that stats can be deceiving. Due to his #'s, he couldn't see that kobe, melo, and pp belonged in the argument.

Physically dirk isn't imposing, he's durable but his game is soft.


And just to re clarify I'd still take dirk eight out of ten times.

[JBH3]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

no I'm not because nothing is black and white, its a fact that stats can be used to prove anything to anybody. I'm not saying there never useful, but sometimes you have to trust yourself and your knowledge of basketball in addition to the stats. You wouldn't know by the numbers that Kendrick Perkins is a great "modern" center.

And look at Dirk's career numbers, he has never averaged 10 rebounds in a season when Gasol just got 11 last year and consistently averaged more rebounds then dirk. As of now Dirk simply isn't as good of a rebounder.

You only have to look at slimm's mid-range argument to see that stats can be deceiving. Due to his #'s, he couldn't see that kobe, melo, and pp belonged in the argument. Physically dirk isn't imposing, he's durable but his game is soft. And just to re clarify I'd still take dirk eight out of ten times.

Bringing in another thread's inconsistencies holds no water here.

No one has difuted anything that I HAVE stated. In fact, most of the statistical mentions have been avoided. People have come in here, said Pau is better at this/that, and provided nothing tangible to back up there claims.

Furthermore...Mean/Median/Mode. Which means that an 11.0 rpg avg in just 65 games, this being a first in his 9 season career, is hardly a forecast of things to come. In fact, I'd venture to say that IF Gasol was able to play 80 games his avg boards/gm would likely regress back to his career #.

In 2008-09 Gasol played 81 games and avg'd 9.6 rpgs...something Dirk has done 3x in his career. That sample size (81 games) is much more effective forecaster.

Dirk went: 10/19 and 11/11 FT for 31 and 10; 1 TO, 1 Ast, 1 Stl
Gasol went: 5/9 for 11 and 6, no steals, no blocks, and 3 fouls.

[dossier]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Bringing in another thread's inconsistencies holds no water here.

No one has difuted anything that I HAVE stated. In fact, most of the statistical mentions have been avoided. People have come in here, said Pau is better at this/that, and provided nothing tangible to back up there claims.

Furthermore...Mean/Median/Mode. Which means that an 11.0 rpg avg in just 65 games, this being a first in his 9 season career, is hardly a forecast of things to come. In fact, I'd venture to say that IF Gasol was able to play 80 games his avg boards/gm would likely regress back to his career #.

In 2008-09 Gasol played 81 games and avg'd 9.6 rpgs...something Dirk has done 3x in his career. That sample size (81 games) is much more effective forecaster.

Plus...when we look at Gasol's game log from last year, he only had 16 double-digit rebound games in his 65 games played. Sooo boys and girls that means there was a 25% chance he would produce double-digit boards...

5 of Gasol's 16 double digit rebound efforts in 2009-10 came in 5 straight games vs these opponents (in DEC): MIN, UTH, CHI, MIL, and NJN.

Minny bottom 5 rebounding team and bottom 5 FG% team = plenty of rebounds for Pau.

Utah a very good shooting team (49%), not many boards to go around.

CHI a middle of the pack shooting team, bottom 10 in opp rebounds; plenty of rebound opps for Gasol.

MIL a poor shooting team, and poor rebounding team; bottom 10 in both.

NJN a poor everything team, plenty of boards to go around.

...and if it's worth any merit...The only time the Lakers/Mavs faced off in 2009-10 with both Dirk and Gasol starting/playing significant minutes...

Dirk went: 10/19 and 11/11 FT for 31 and 10; 1 TO, 1 Ast, 1 Stl
Gasol went: 5/9 for 11 and 6, no steals, no blocks, and 3 fouls.

umm yes it does. If a person arguing against me is using the same logic he used in another thread, in which he was continuously billed as wrong, that applies to him, and by extension you in this thread.

And I did respond to your argument. Yes the mavs may have been a good rebounding team, but that wasn't always the case. His number have stayed the same over his career while his cast has improved.

And stop making it sound like I don't know whats stats are. Don't act like 65 games isn't enough for valid season averages. Most of his numbers have been relatively the same across the season. He just now started working out and as a result can hang around with bigger guys, which is represented in his rebounds and blocks going up.

and lol at however many double doubles. Normally yes you would be right, but the fact that gasol averaged 11.3 rebounds a game makes it less efficient, so obviously he was having some monster games on the boards.

and your last stat line is exactly why I would pick dirk. he changes everything, makes it a different game. he takes players out of their comfort zones and things like that happen.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

The problem isn't that the conversation has been lacking points from "the other side", meaning the Dirk supporters, it's that regardless of how those points are brought up there are some people who absolutely won't accept them due to them not passing the "eye test" or some other completely subjective analysis. The thing is, THAT'S WHY STATS ARE THERE! If I think that player A is a better 3pt shooter than player B, and you can prove that player B is better by using stats, I admit that I'm wrong and start touting player B as the better shooter. For some reason, that doesn't happen in our discussions. Instead, opinions trump fact because stats are easily dismissed.

Every statistic brought up for Dirk (and for players in the mid-range thread) has been backed by knowledgeable subjective analysis as well, but if that opinion goes against the grain, it's ridiculed. It's not about convincing somebody else that they're wrong and we're right, either. It's the frustration that comes from being told that our opinions are ridiculous, regardless of how much fact we use and how much it makes sense, that pulls us back into the debate. At least that's where I'm at with it.

I may be wrong, but it seems like there's a lot of homerism in the statement of "Dirk is a better player, but I'd take Pau anyway." If you're picking a player to win, you pick the best player. Some people have already stated that Dirk is a better player, but they would still rather have Pau. SMH.

Is it so hard to understand?

Homerism? Good gracious that's the best you could come up with?

1. Dirk may be > Pau but the gap isn't that wide at all. So understand that concept. Pau is arguably the best big man in the world. He's certainly the most well-rounded, and has the highest IQ.

2. Styles. For the last and final time it's Pau's style of play that would have me pick him over Dirk regardless of what team he plays for.

As far as statistics, we all understand that it can show tendencies and efficiency but you guys use them to answer questions in black or white. Sports aren't like that, especially when you consider all of the variables. Regular season isn't anything like the playoffs.

As I stated playoff basketball I'd want to have a player with Gasol's skill set, a player who can pound inside and defend and rebound than a jump shooting big man who scores at a high clip and has high FG %'s. That's not homerism that's winning basketball. Something Dirk hasn't experienced in years, he's actually been knocked out in the first round 3 of the last 4 years

I get it, the guy puts up great numbers, and yes he may be ranked slightly ahead of Pau, but it's not a homeristic view to want a more traditional big man who may be the most well-rounded big man in the world.

SMH at you for not grasping simple basketball concepts. Kobe doesn't belong in mid-range discussions and now it's homerism if I want Pau over Dirk even though I admit that Dirk may be the better individual talent. You can keep your stats and let it blind you since it's obvious you don't watch the games.

[dossier]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

The common denominator in both threads is that stats aren't being considered, despite myself and those talking about stats using opinion and educated analysis to back up our argument. There has not been one post that just used stats, but since we use them, our opinions are instantly invalidated. Ill take Dirk, and if you disagree, you can take Gasol. Its pretty clear that everybody has their mind made up anyway.

lol

You can't just use number to prove a point. I agree stats are a great way at telling how good a player is, but there is how the player goes about doing things that change the meaning of stats.

Look at what you posted, there is not one post that just uses stats for a reason. it's because identifying good players in any sports is more than just stats.

Now I'm not saying your wrong in picking dirk, and the stats you use are valid, but they are not the end all be all. Gasol is better than you make him out to be. There is a reason people who know basketball (and not just us genius' at OS, but the real world) say that gasol is arguably the best pf in the nba.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

lol

You can't just use number to prove a point. I agree stats are a great way at telling how good a player is, but there is how the player goes about doing things that change the meaning of stats.

Look at what you posted, there is not one post that just uses stats for a reason. it's because identifying good players in any sports is more than just stats.

Now I'm not saying your wrong in picking dirk, and the stats you use are valid, but they are not the end all be all. Gasol is better than you make him out to be. There is a reason people who know basketball (and not just us genius' at OS, but the real world) say that gasol is arguably the best pf in the nba.

Thank you.

Nowhere am I saying you or anyone else is incorrect for picking Dirk.

The stats posted tried to be-little Pau, so my counter/objections to them has nothing to do with me trying to convince anyone that you should pick Pau.

My point was the actual stats posted may show some things, but they were mostly useless. Considering all of the things I've already posted on the matter.

[slimm44]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Is it so hard to understand?

Homerism? Good gracious that's the best you could come up with?

1. Dirk may be > Pau but the gap isn't that wide at all. So understand that concept. Pau is arguably the best big man in the world. He's certainly the most well-rounded, and has the highest IQ.

I'm not talking about how much better Dirk is. You yourself said he is the better player earlier in the thread.

2. Styles. For the last and final time it's Pau's style of play that would have me pick him over Dirk regardless of what team he plays for.

As far as statistics, we all understand that it can show tendencies and efficiency but you guys use them to answer questions in black or white. Sports aren't like that, especially when you consider all of the variables. Regular season isn't anything like the playoffs.

You're right. And Dirk raises his game significantly every year in the playoffs. That should count for something, even without bringing in the specific stats.

As I stated playoff basketball I'd want to have a player with Gasol's skill set, a player who can pound inside and defend and rebound than a jump shooting big man who scores at a high clip and has high FG %'s. That's not homerism that's winning basketball. Something Dirk hasn't experienced in years, he's actually been knocked out in the first round 3 of the last 4 years.

So you're gonna penalize Dirk for the team he plays on? Again, Dirk has led his team to the Finals, Gasol hasn't. Call him weak or whatever you want to, he still did it. Gasol hasn't and won't.

I get it, the guy puts up great numbers, and yes he may be ranked slightly ahead of Pau, but it's not a homeristic view to want a more traditional big man who may be the most well-rounded big man in the world.

SMH at you for not grasping simple basketball concepts. Kobe doesn't belong in mid-range discussions and now it's homerism if I want Pau over Dirk even though I admit that Dirk may be the better individual talent. You can keep your stats and let it blind you since it's obvious you don't watch the games.

Wow, looks like I struck a nerve. I'm surprised your still stuck in the other thread. I didn't know we were talking about that, but you keep bringing up Kobe. What does he have to do with this thread? Thanks for the insults, also.

Don't let it hurt your feelings, EX. No need in getting mad about a thread.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: who would you rather have, Dirk or Pau?

Dirk led his team to the Finals 4 or 5 years ago. As I said earlier in the thread, he was elite back then.

Today is a different story. So by me saying Dirk>Pau but I'd still rather have Pau isn't really that earth shattering. You trying to play the homer card is just about as pathetic as your mid range logic.

Just because I don't sit here and simply post stats to prove why one player is inferior to the other doesn't mean I'm mad. Sometimes I like to use other types of arguments to get my point across other than just posting numbers and percentages.