11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

[TMagic]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

As an aside, you've got to be happy with the way the Hornets have looked so far Throne.

Their undefeated and have been beating good teams. It's not like they have a bunch of wins against scrubs.

The next few weeks should tell us a lot about them and where they stand in the among the best as they continue to play some of the better teams in the league.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

Yeah, Denver looked awesome last night. Why Melo wants to leave, I don't know. Denver is a well-rounded team IMO. They might not have the greatest bigs, but that home crowd is great and Lawson and Forbes look nice.

Unless he has a guaranteed chance to go play with Chris Paul, then I think it would maybe be best for him to stay in Denver. At this point though it looks like his foot is halfway out the door.

[The 24th Letter]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

Denver seems like they are still patting thmselve on the back for hanging with LA in the playoffs two years back....they need to make some more quality moves.....actually, I think theyre A move away..

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

About the talent thing, Cleveland wasnt good enough to win a title, so please man stop that stuff.

This team, you have a slow foot Carlos Arroyo running the point, which he looks like he should barely have a job right now in the NBA.

Im not saying that to mark excuses for Miami, because they dont seem to have it in my eyes, and just as charles kenny and mchale said, they dont seem to be comfortable out there at all.

I think the need a better point though because the ball needs to be taken out of LeBrons hand, and the fact that you cant have top caliber players running the team and a young coach with no notches under his belt.

Essentially they have the same issues alot of other teams have, inside, coaching, and a point.

Slow footed? The Lakers have won 5 rings with Derek Fisher. Every team has weaknesses. It's about gameplanning in a way to compensate for those weaknesses. Boston has a PG that can't shoot. LA has a PG that can't move. Orlando doesn't have a reliable penetrator on the perimeter, but each of these teams made the finals. Cleveland had the talent to make the Finals, but they collapsed mentally. More on that later.

Lol. Exactly man. The excuses made for LeBron and the lack of talent around him was high comedy. He doesn't have that built in excuse anymore. With Wade (who I believe is better than LeBron) and Bosh (even though I personally don't think he's very good), there is no excuse for the "best" player in the world's team to be 5-4. Once people start seeing through his assist numbers and realize he makes players around him WORSE, maybe the LBJ hype train will calm down. Anyone can get alot of assists when the whole offense revolves around you dribbling the ball for 20 seconds and kicking it to a wide open shooter, on the occasions you don't opt to barrel into a defender, initiating the contact and being rewarded with 20 something freethrows. Assists don't = unselfish or making players around you better.

Rarely is a loss ever one player's fault. A 24 year old wing player overdribbling is never the sole problem for losing a championship, but LeIso is indeed one of the many factors.

Also the fault of a disappearing Mo Williams

A Coach who had to let his assistant take over as he panicked on the sideline

and it could go on and on, but they didnt have enough to win it all.


Im not knocking CLE though, Just the ridiculousness of that post and somehow tying it into Miami.

Mo's vanishing act was a factor, as was the coaching, but in both cases, on court leadership is responsible for putting the ball where it needs to be, and making guys accountable. Williams is not a scrub. He's a proven scorer that Lebron and Mike Brown tried to convert into a spot up/standstill jumpshooter. Anyone who knows anything about bball could tell you he would not flourish in that role. Mo needed the ball, and they took it away from him.

It's the third week though TMagic.

Of course you get the random Laker fan posts of 'LeBron still doesn't have enough talent'. Not surprised by that BS as we are only in the third week of the season.

I will say though Miami's problems are not going away anytime soon. It's going to be a puzzle to figure out because unless Wade/LBJ are going to the rack non-stop and getting fouled or converting, they can't space the floor well at all.

Chris Bosh is looking anemic on both ends of the floor, I don't care that he has two dominant ball handlers as teammates, if you're an All-Star and a top 3-5 PF, you figure it out. That is a piss poor excuse for him to be playing the way he has been.

Good post, and I agree with most points. The one thing I disagree on is Bosh: It is the responsibility of the coach and the guards to give a big man the space and schemes to work out of the post. They have to provide movement and the basketball. Most big men are passive personalities and will disappear of perimeter players hog the ball. I'm not saying it's right, but Bosh didn't invent this general basketball truth. If you pay Chris, if you recruit Chris, it's your responsibility to put him in a position to succeed. They are not playing to his strengths right now, and they are suffering for it.

Highest ceiling? Howso?

Because JVG said they'll win 70 games?

I can say they definitely need that legit threat in Mike Miller back on the perimeter but someone inside is going to have to get mean.

Thats going to sting in the playoffs. Truthfully LeBron should've worked on his post moves because he could be a pretty scary threat from the inside and opening up space. Bosh will never be that.... Im starting to think Miami would've been better off offering that dough to Dirk instead of Bosh

Highest ceiling because they have 3/5ths of the Eastern All Stars and some decent roleplayers. If you can't win with that, you're not who you think you are.

I have no idea, real life isn't like a video game where you can just plug different players in and expect A, B and C to happen. I don't want to act like Pau would look worlds better, because right now that offense is in disarray, however Bosh just looks completely inept.

Pau's skill set has developed and he is much more versatile than Bosh is. Even though Pau still shows flashes of being soft, I would have to assume he'd look better than Chris does right now. At least Pau has a back to the basket game and has toughened up so he's an above average rebounder on both ends.

They aren't getting a pass from me. I'm saying making snap judgments after three weeks is pointless. So there is definitely no need to panic. They need a feeling out period, it was silly to ever think the team was going to snap off the bat.

Like Born said their two best players are not jumpshooters. That is a major factor. They're gonna need Mike Miller to come back ASAP.

On the flipside, they are one of the best defensive teams in the league to start. Unfortunately their bigs are not playing to par on defense. They need to make some adjustments because toughness doesn't really come overnight.

Re: Pau

If you take THIS Pau Gasol, yeah, he'd be better because he's a better passer and interior defender. If you take 2007 Pau, he'd have similar problems to Chris. Pau was successful immediately in LA because of Phil, Kobe, Fish, and Lamar's collective IQ. Pau is a cerebral guy, so the Lakers took off right from the start. Perfect puzzle piece. The same thing wouldn't have happened with say, Al Jefferson. Funny enough, the LA situation suits Bosh very well. If you put Bosh in LA right now, they'd be debating his elite status by the end of the season, because LA has better leadership and intelligence on the sidelines and on the court.

Re: Miami and shooting
Mike Miller will help because he'll add depth, but his success will depend on Miami figuring out a major problem, which you and 23 have alluded to. Right now Arroyo, Jones and Haslem are making shots. I don't think Miami has lost because those guys aren't making shots. They lose for two reasons: defense against the 1/5, and Wade and Lebron's one-pass basketball style.


Soap Box Time

Comparing Miami's Big 3 to Boston's original, younger trio sheds light on the problems.
-Miami Big 3--two athletic penetrators and a jumpshooting big
-Boston Big 3--one great iso player, one great shooter, all around big who can score inside, outside and is the best defender at his position
-Miami's offense--figure out whether it'll be Lebron OR Wade who dominates the ball, look for shooters when the help comes
-Boston's offense--a well oiled machine where the PG has the ball, ball movement looks for shooters and overcompensation is punished with the PG choosing the isolation mismatch. Occasional high pick and roll/pop with the PF and a series of screens for the shooter.

Miami's offensive success is isolation based. The solution for this is to wall off the paint and force the isolaters to make jump shots.

Boston's offense forces you to rotate, be disciplined, and be successful against a very high probability offense, with great 3 point shooters to punish every mistake.

Miami needs to figure out a 5 man offense. When they do, they'll be a playoff championship contender.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

RE: Cleveland of recent years

Cleveland "had the talent" but reasonably I'm gonna go with Boston and even Orlando in terms of odds to be the conference champ. It's just not a fair fight when you look at the rosters.

Cleveland's chemistry, for all the 'LeBron was a ballstopper' talk, was pretty much off the charts. Their offense flowed beautifully in the regular season, because they were perfectly constructed to win regular season games.

Now once the playoffs came, and the pace of the game changed dramatically, no interior presence on either side of the floor, questionable wing players in Parker/Moon, and a wilting rose in Mo Williams... just not the roster you'd expect to win a title.

RE: Carlos Arroyo

As far as Miami's current point guard situation, Born I think it's unfair you compare Rondo and Fisher to Carlos. I know you were just replying to the 'slow footed comment', but Carlos doesn't excel in any specific area.

In his own element where he has the freedom to roam [i.e. playing for Puerto Rico], Carlos can be a very creative playmaker, but this is not the team for him to be controlling the ball like that.

Rondo and Fisher both excel in several areas that I'm sure is evident to most people, so I'm not going to list them.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

No question the Cavs changed their offense in the playoffs, but I don't think that had anything to do with the defense that was being played. IMO, when things got tight, management put the ball in Lebron's hands because they thought that would make him happy. Lebron, at that age at that time, didn't have the ego or IQ to say otherwise, so the fourth quarter against Orlando started with him using Isomotion.

Against Boston: it is very, very important to remember that this was a tied series when the bizarre LeQuit thing happened. Cleveland lost because they broke down mentally, and Lebron knocked over the first domino. So X's and O's get thrown out of the window for that particular series. Boston didn't out strategize them. A few times during that series, Rondo took over, but the story of those playoffs was Cleveland imploding. Boston just happened to be there to watch. Boston might have one anyway, but that's not the reality.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

RE: Cleveland of recent years

Cleveland "had the talent" but reasonably I'm gonna go with Boston and even Orlando in terms of odds to be the conference champ. It's just not a fair fight when you look at the rosters.

Cleveland's chemistry, for all the 'LeBron was a ballstopper' talk, was pretty much off the charts. Their offense flowed beautifully in the regular season, because they were perfectly constructed to win regular season games.

Now once the playoffs came, and the pace of the game changed dramatically, no interior presence on either side of the floor, questionable wing players in Parker/Moon, and a wilting rose in Mo Williams... just not the roster you'd expect to win a title.

Mo Williams, last year at least, was the reason why we took Boston to 6 games in the first place.

The year before, ehhh...yeah, he was largely responsible. However, LeBron's on ball domination was a major problem when it came to the playoffs because he cannot go 1 on 5 and win, and that's in large part because of LeBron going into hero mode.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

OSU you're kidding yourself. Mo had what, two decent games in that series? Mo was milk box games 2-5. And milk box is putting it lightly.

Born, yeah I was going off assumption in terms of Cleveland not having a good enough team to be champs, but LeQuit definitely ended any chance of them advancing.

Still I think it's reasonable to say that the rosters just didn't stack up.

Either way let's just move on.

[23]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

RE: Carlos Arroyo

As far as Miami's current point guard situation, Born I think it's unfair you compare Rondo and Fisher to Carlos. I know you were just replying to the 'slow footed comment', but Carlos doesn't excel in any specific area.

In his own element where he has the freedom to roam [i.e. playing for Puerto Rico], Carlos can be a very creative playmaker, but this is not the team for him to be controlling the ball like that.

Rondo and Fisher both excel in several areas that I'm sure is evident to most people, so I'm not going to list them.

Thanks, thats exactly where I was taking it. EXACTLY

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

IMO I don't see why they don't let Carlos handle the rock more often.

LeBron has fared well letting Boobie and Mo do whatever the hell they want in recent years. Albeit both of them are knock down shooters...

Carlos to me is a capable guy in terms of pick and roll and then driving to the lane and making passes.

I don't know, right now Wade and LBJ dominating the ball just looks gross.

[sir lucious lft ft]

They aren't getting a pass from me. I'm saying making snap judgments after three weeks is pointless. So there is definitely no need to panic. They need a feeling out period, it was silly to ever think the team was going to snap off the bat.

Like Born said their two best players are not jumpshooters. That is a major factor. They're gonna need Mike Miller to come back ASAP.

On the flipside, they are one of the best defensive teams in the league to start. Unfortunately their bigs are not playing to par on defense. They need to make some adjustments because toughness doesn't really come overnight.

I don't think it was silly to believe they would snap off bat considering boston big 3 did it back in 08 by starting the season like 26-2. It's funny that ppl say they need time to gel as if they still look lost out on the court. I know 3 weeks seem like a short time to us but yall don't realize that these dudes play a lot of bball within that time (games, practices, film sessions) and all that work shows cause when they playing everybody else not named boston they looked fantastic out on the court. Hell they were killing the jazz up until the jazz transformed into optimus prime. This team has chemistry, I just believe they are not *** good to beat the elite teams (lakers, boston) in a 7 game series with the current role players they have. They are in desparate need of a real pg and a real physical presence down low. Haslem that type of dude but he too small. Mike miller just another shooter, James Jones and Eddie house already doing that. But when your pg (lebron) has to take 21 shots which don't even include the shot attempts he took and got fouled (went to the line 11 times) just for you to compete, that's never a good a thing and thats why wade only took 12 shots. Now yall see why they were trying so hard to pry fisher from the lakers


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[Bornindamecca]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

IMO I don't see why they don't let Carlos handle the rock more often.

LeBron has fared well letting Boobie and Mo do whatever the hell they want in recent years. Albeit both of them are knock down shooters...

Carlos to me is a capable guy in terms of pick and roll and then driving to the lane and making passes.

I don't know, right now Wade and LBJ dominating the ball just looks gross.

Thanks, thats exactly where I was taking it. EXACTLY

I actually agree with both sides of this argument.

1. My point was not to compare Arroyo to Fisher and 07/08 Rondo. The point was that Miami is not doing things to compensate for their weakness.

2. I agree with you guys. They should have a better PG than Carlos Arroyo, but this goes back to the original argument. Instead of spending that money on Lebron OR Bosh, they should have chosen one or the other and filled out the roster with stronger roleplayers/semi All Stars.

Problem is, they went after the big names whether or not it made basketball sense. So now they are in a situation where these young dudes have to change their games and their development to compensate for an all sizzle and no steak group. They have the talent to do it, but their window might not be as big as they think with Wade's health history.

These dudes are going to have to defend players they'd rather not, take on roles they aren't used to and take a major hit on certain numbers.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

Comparing Miami's 3 to Boston's is just plain silly. Just silly.

Refresh yourself on what kind of support Boston had that year. An enforcer in Perkins, energy in Powe, shut down defense and knock down three's in James Posey, veteran and knock down mid range shooter in PJ Brown, with a wild card streaky three point threat in Eddie House.

Refresh yourself on the skills of each player in the Big 3. They all compliment each other to the fullest. KG was still an elite and MVP candidate. Defensively he was just a bull. Refresh yourself with the fact that you had PP, KG and Ray all hungry for their first ring. We're talking vets who had been through so many playoff battles with nothing to show for it.

Throw in a burgeoning Rondo who was already speedster and an expert at penetration, and your team can't fit together any better.

Keep that team out of this.

When you look at Miami's roster, it's no surprise they look disjointed. Their cohesion is not going to come for a month or two. But when they figure it out, it's gonna be scary.

[Bornindamecca]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

^^is that in response to me? If so, I'm very confused, as you've echoed a lot of my points.

[ex carrabba fan]

Re: 11/8-11/14 Game Discussion Thread

^^is that in response to me? If so, I'm very confused, as you've echoed a lot of my points.

No not at all Born, it was to the post above you.