NBA Lockout and Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

It's called leverage. The owners have it and the players don't. It's that simple. Has nothing to do with good faith. These owners got where they are because they are for the most part shrewd businessmen. In any negotiation whether it's a CBA, or kid trading baseball cards, if someone has leverage that's the way it goes.

The owners simply don't need the players, the players do need the owners. That pretty much ensures the negotiations will go the way they are. There's no blame here, it simply is what it is.

So where is that shrewedness when it comes to signing players?

[TheMatrix31]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

So where is that shrewedness when it comes to signing players?

Dude, you're not understanding a couple of things.

One, you can't just say "oh, well, don't sign __________ then". You HAVE to field a team. You can't just sign minimum contract players. Unless you wanna go the Moneyball route or something. But good luck with that in basketball. There are multiple reasons why teams overspend or make bad contracts. Also, if there is one IDIOT GM or team that signs a player to a ridiculous contract, that automatically bumps everyone else's contract up. The market inflates. That happens, then a guy like Joe Johnson goes from being worth 50 million or so (the offer he received from Phoenix the first time around before we dealt him) to wanting 70, 80 million.

[Court_vision]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7100999/avoiding-lockout-red-sox

Bill Simmons:

Kevin Garnett, who inexplicably turned into Norma Rae these past few weeks and led the charge to fight the fight and stand strong … without, of course, ever mentioning that his agent was savvy enough to defer a significant amount of money from his last contract extension so that he still has fresh money coming in this season (unlike 95 percent of the players), or that a 50-game regular season would be absolutely perfect for his aching knees, or that losing two months of 2011-12 money might help him with his next contract because he won't break down during a shortened season (increasing the odds that he'll get one last lucrative extension next summer).

Should someone who's earned over $300 million (including endorsements) and has deferred paychecks coming really be telling guys who have made 1/100th as much as him to fight the fight and stand strong and not care about getting paid? And what are Garnett's credentials, exactly? During one of the single biggest meetings (last week, on Tuesday), Hunter had Kobe Bryant, Paul Pierce and Garnett (combined years spent in college: three) negotiate directly with Stern in some sort of misguided "Look how resolved we are, you're not gonna intimidate us!" ploy that backfired so badly that one of their teams' owners was summoned into the meeting specifically to calm his player down and undo some of the damage. (I'll let you guess the player. It's not hard.) And this helped the situation … how? And we thought this was going to work … why?

Congratulations, players — you showed solidarity! You showed you wouldn't back down! You made things worse, and you wasted a day, but dammit, you didn't back down! Just make sure you tell that to every team employee who gets fired over these next few weeks, as well as to all the restaurant and bar owners near NBA arenas who are taking a massive financial hit through the holidays. I'm sure they will be proud of you.

[The 24th Letter]

Dude, you're not understanding a couple of things.

One, you can't just say "oh, well, don't sign __________ then". You HAVE to field a team. You can't just sign minimum contract players. Unless you wanna go the Moneyball route or something. But good luck with that in basketball. There are multiple reasons why teams overspend or make bad contracts. Also, if there is one IDIOT GM or team that signs a player to a ridiculous contract, that automatically bumps everyone else's contract up. The market inflates. That happens, then a guy like Joe Johnson goes from being worth 50 million or so (the offer he received from Phoenix the first time around before we dealt him) to wanting 70, 80 million.

There is overspending for players who can actually produce, which is understandable, and there is signing players like Travis Outlaw to his insane contract. These owners make some piss poor decisions...and have been doing it for years. Accountability is a must.

[Court_vision]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

There is overspending for players who can actually produce, which is understandable, and there is signing players like Travis Outlaw to his insane contract. These owners make some piss poor decisions...and have been doing it for years. Accountability is a must.

A lot of the overspending is agent driven though with star players used as bait...i.e. "I can get you player A, but you have got to take care of player B or get me one one of these guys also".

At the moment owners are basically forced to pay whatever it takes...everyone criticises Orlando about Rashard Lewis, but without him that season they don't make the finals.

Don't make the finals = Dwight = more likely to leave.

The system needs to be fixed so that teams can be competivitive and make runs at the title without having to gamble everything. Guys like Shard, Outlaw, Hedo etc are all good players and 4 to 5 million a season would be fair. It's not like they'd struggle to survive on that money...........

[OSUFan_88]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Can anyone explain to me why the NBPA would want to threaten contraction? Yeah, sure, it takes away an owner *well, unless you contract NOH* but you also are losing more jobs for the NBPA.

Not sure I understand that one, but then again, Billy Hunter...

[Jamesmaster]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Well, let's see how unified the players will be if the whole season is on the verge of being cancelled.
I don't believe that the old timers will stay unified if they are about to lose their last chance at a title e.g. the Celtics' big 3, Kobe Bryant, the Mavs, the Duncans of this world.
They can't win this battle, they'll only lose more by acting the way they act now.

[clipperfan811]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

The funny thing is I'm in favor of a 50/50 split, a flex cap, and the end of all exceptions. I would love for the owners to get all of that. At the same time the owners have to give something up. I would suggest ending max salaries, some kind of non-trade clause for player with x amount of years with one team, and no limit on years for contracts.

I think one of the biggest problems with the system now is that contracts are way too long. If a guy keeps producing he's going to keep getting massive deals if not well he won't.

Even a contract like Lewis has wasn't totally ridiculous the first few years, perhaps a little exaggerated but if that was a 3 year deal, he would have pretty much earned his money.

Then as his performance kept declining maybe he would have re-signed with Orlando for a much lower and appropriate contract or even with another team.

As is he's almost guaranteed to fail because no matter what he has a label of being an overpaid waste. That can't be good for self confidence.

Ditto for Arenas.

[bigeastbumrush]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

From Shane Battier:



Now this is one thing I will kill the Owners on and even though there's unlikely to be any change in that, it still makes no sense(same goes for the NFL as well)for Ticket Prices to be that high. None at all...

Fisher and Hunter are going to shotgun blast these lower-tier players for "speaking out".

[aholbert32]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Can anyone explain to me why the NBPA would want to threaten contraction? Yeah, sure, it takes away an owner *well, unless you contract NOH* but you also are losing more jobs for the NBPA.

Not sure I understand that one, but then again, Billy Hunter...

I think that was more of comment to the public. If you are a season ticket holder in Sacramento or Indiana or NO...that comment should drive you to puts some pressure on your team's owner to pressure Stern to make a deal.

[MikeJ2021]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I'm a hardcore basketball fan, but I have to admit, the longer this lockout goes on the more I dislike NBA players. I usually side with players in lockout issues but the NBA players are ridiculous. Friday's players meeting only had about 20 or so people in it according to reports and most of them that attended are role players. For Fisher to stand up there and preach unity to them while they will be the ones most hurt by this lockout is crazy. Who does he think he is fooling? They aren't "unified"! Only 20 players showed up to a meeting out of the 400+ who plays in the NBA. After reading Bill Simmons recent article about the lockout, I'm convinced that the players will cost us the entire NBA season.

"why do I keep hearing from connected/smart/knowledgeable people within the sport that Billy [Hunter] knows he can't get a better deal than the one the owners offered last week, only he doesn't want to accept it now because he knows that — if he does — the players union will fire him afterwards for caving, which means he'll lose his lucrative ($2.5 million per year) contract? If that's true, that means Billy would rather lose everyone else's paycheck over his own. I really hope that's not true. Just know that's what people are whispering, Billy." - Simmons

If thats the case then you can kiss the season goodbye cause Hunter is the wrong guy to lead the NBAPA

"The owners are fine with paying LeBron $20 million a year; they just don't want to pay James Posey $7 million a year. They are trying to save themselves from themselves. The players won't help them. Their attitude is, "Just don't sign those dumb contracts then." But the owners have proven — flagrantly and embarrassingly over these past few decades — that they can't freaking help themselves. They want more protection. They want more checks and balances. And you know what? In this case, they're right." - Simmons

If this is true then it only makes sense for the players to take a 50/50 split. Why are they fighting for the right for Posey to make $7 million a year when he doesn't deserve that at all?

"Congratulations, players — you showed solidarity! You showed you wouldn't back down! You made things worse, and you wasted a day, but dammit, you didn't back down! Just make sure you tell that to every team employee who gets fired over these next few weeks, as well as to all the restaurant and bar owners near NBA arenas who are taking a massive financial hit through the holidays. I'm sure they will be proud of you." - Simmons

Sums up my entire feelings about the players right now. I'm so glad that none of my favorite players on the Bulls are in this mess and are attending these meetings.

And on another note, I hear players "threatening" start a new league, whats stopping owners from doing the same thing? Basketball is the only sport in the world where the 400+ players in the league ARE NOT the world's best basketball players. There are streetball players, players who play at the Rucker, players who went undrafted, who are way better than many of the role players who this Union is fighting for. If all thirty owners said F it and filled their rosters with streetball players, you can't tell me that it wouldn't be a better product then what we have right now. Every player would care about their jobs, you'd see sound basketball, and you'd get the flash that would bring in the casual fan. I wish owners would do that instead of wasting their time with Fisher and Hunter.

Here's the link to the Bill Simmons article in case you want to read it for yourselves: Avoiding the Lockout and the Red Sox

[23]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Fisher and Hunter are going to shotgun blast these lower-tier players for "speaking out".

At this point...whats the motive?

Keep pressing for 53% for what?

If we can see that its a lost cause then I know for sure they know it

...so what are they doing


So Maggette is selling one of his homes

What you think, lockout related or just feel like being a help to some poor sap in the economy?

http://guyism.com/sports/corey-maggette-trying-to-sell-pricey-batman-themed-l-a-home.html

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

Dude, you're not understanding a couple of things.

One, you can't just say "oh, well, don't sign __________ then". You HAVE to field a team. You can't just sign minimum contract players. Unless you wanna go the Moneyball route or something. But good luck with that in basketball. There are multiple reasons why teams overspend or make bad contracts. Also, if there is one IDIOT GM or team that signs a player to a ridiculous contract, that automatically bumps everyone else's contract up. The market inflates. That happens, then a guy like Joe Johnson goes from being worth 50 million or so (the offer he received from Phoenix the first time around before we dealt him) to wanting 70, 80 million.

I agree the system needs tweaking. I have already stated that I am a fan of a set limit on spending. My thing is it's completely unreasonble negotionating practices to expect to get everything slanted your way. The owners care more about ensuring they make a profit that is priority #1 for them. That's prefectly understandable, but that means they should start bending on other areas(especially on the salary cap system) or offering the players something they never had in return. Anything short of that makes this an extortion, not a negotionation. How can anybody blame the players for not wanting to be extorted?

I also don't understand how people can blame the players for being overly greedy, but let the owners off the hook and blame the system. I can point to too many players over the last 5 or so years with insane contracts that most knowledgable fans would say those guy were severly being over paid before the inked dried. There's no excuses for it yet some people continue to make them to justify the owners stance.

So yeah the system creates some Rudy Gay's, Joe Johnson's, or Amare Stoudmire's. However there's no excuse for the Stephen Marbury's, Rashard Lewis', Carlos Boozers', Andrei Kirilenko's, Peja Stojakovic's, Ed Curry's, Ben Gordon's, Andris Biedrins', Charlie Villanueva's, Travis Outlaw's, etc etc etc etc. When are we suppose to hold management responsible for these deals? Or do we continue to blame the players and the system?

[da ThRONe]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

I think one of the biggest problems with the system now is that contracts are way too long. If a guy keeps producing he's going to keep getting massive deals if not well he won't.

Even a contract like Lewis has wasn't totally ridiculous the first few years, perhaps a little exaggerated but if that was a 3 year deal, he would have pretty much earned his money.

Then as his performance kept declining maybe he would have re-signed with Orlando for a much lower and appropriate contract or even with another team.

As is he's almost guaranteed to fail because no matter what he has a label of being an overpaid waste. That can't be good for self confidence.

Ditto for Arenas.

I am a fan of opt out clause for both party half way through the deals. My point is this is something management can give to the players yet still have some control over it. Just because you can make a 10 year deal doesn't mean you have to. And with an opt out clause at 5 years no team/or player is locked in for too long.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: NBA Lockout and Collective Barganing Agreement Discussion

So yeah the system creates some Rudy Gay's, Joe Johnson's, or Amare Stoudmire's. However there's no excuse for the Stephen Marbury's, Rashard Lewis', Carlos Boozers', Andrei Kirilenko's, Peja Stojakovic's, Ed Curry's, Ben Gordon's, Andris Biedrins', Charlie Villanueva's, Travis Outlaw's, etc etc etc etc. When are we suppose to hold management responsible for these deals? Or do we continue to blame the players and the system?

Just like to give my Bulls a pat on the back here. They offered been Gordon a pretty resonable contract for his skill level and he got the dollar signs in his eyes and turned it down for something bigger. Bulls gave him the deuces saying 'peace out' on that ridiculous deal he wanted. Detroit proceeded to give him a contract that he clearly wasn't worth and now it's biting them in the ***.

Was listening to Scott Van Pelt the other day and Ryan Russillo made a good point that the owners went about things the wrong way as they shouldn't have came out demanding so much at one time and not used all the bravado along with it. The tough talk and knowing where bodies are buried and all that as it's not a good look going into the negotiations. Also pointed out how funny it is that all these concessions are needed because of the economic state of the country when people like pretty much all the owners, probably even some if not most of them are among the people responsible for putting the country in this state in the first place and now are crying for relief.