2012 NBA Draft Discussion

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

19 years old, hasn't played in the NBA yet.

That's why your logic is flawed.

I remember when LeBron came into the league he was an atrocious defender, now he's one of the best at his position. I remember when Dwyane Wade came into the league and his best comparison was Tim Hardaway. I remember when Derrick Rose didn't have a jumpshot. etc. etc. etc.

Just because something (or someone) is a certain way at first doesn't mean they won't change get better/worse so on and so forth. You keep talking about guys in the NBA who are for the most part already physically mature and older than Davis (for comparison's sake Kenneth Faried is 23 in November i.e. a 4 year physical maturity gap even though Faried isn't even really a post player but I digress). Anthony Davis is 19 years old, hasn't stepped a foot on court in an NBA jersey. You're already proclaiming him to be too slight of frame yet his wide shoulders and the fact that he's already 220 (Faried again for Comparison's sake is about 6'8 230 lbs what terrifying mass) at the age of 19 suggests he still has yet to mature physically. As I already stated his physical peak has yet to be achieved and unlike John Henson who's pretty much at his max Davis can still put on another 20-30 lbs without sacrificing speed and athleticism.

This "he's too skinny/frail" whatever sentiment really has no weight in the current NBA as most players rarely play in the post for starters, and generally are more out on the perimeter. Hell if Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins (who literally have absolutely no sense of a post game or barely register the ability to dribble) can be effective in today's NBA I don't see why a 6'10-6'11 220 lbs 19 year old with an elite skill, still growing, developing, and maturing can't find a niche in the game today.

Yeah, I mean, Davis has all the physical tools to become an all-star in the NBA. I'm not even saying there's no chance it'll happen. But I don't think he's a lock to reach that point at all. His game is still incredibly raw on the offensive end, and like I said, it's interesting to me that the guy has been a guard for most of his life, and yet his jumpshot is iffy enough that a lot of the NCAA teams wouldn't even really guard him from around the free throw line. I think he'll have to add more muscle before his defensive game ends up being elite, but I could see him being sort of the Joakim Noah type guy where he's high motor, and he can defend both the post and sometimes the perimeter decently well. I think Davis will be a better offensive player (I think it's kind of obvious), but I don't think Davis will ever reach Kevin Garnett status, but who knows.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Not agreeing with da's logic, but I'll say that I don't think Davis will ever be a franchise player either. I think he's more more likely to end up being Camby/Chandler (which is still very good and is a necessity in my opinion) than Garnett/Bosh (meaning a guy that can take over a game on the offensive end and be an MVP candidate in Garnett's case).

In my opinion, Davis's jumpshot should be much better than it currently is considering he's been a guard most of his life. It's interesting to me that he was a guard for most of his life, and yet his post defense is easily his biggest strength but his jumpshot isn't that great.

One of the guys on ESPN was saying that he thinks the team that lands Davis will be playoff bound his rookie season because he's a Tim Duncan-esq player as a rookie. I don't see that at all. I think he can be very effective in pick and rolls because of his mobility and athleticism, but his offensive game is way too limited right now to take a team like the Charlotte Bobcats and make them a playoff team. If Davis is your #1 or #2 scoring option, you're going to be in for a long, long season at least for a few years.

This is all that i've said he'll be a good not great player and most certainly not a once in a generation player.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

19 years old, hasn't played in the NBA yet.

That's why your logic is flawed.

I remember when LeBron came into the league he was an atrocious defender, now he's one of the best at his position. I remember when Dwyane Wade came into the league and his best comparison was Tim Hardaway. I remember when Derrick Rose didn't have a jumpshot. etc. etc. etc.

Just because something (or someone) is a certain way at first doesn't mean they won't change get better/worse so on and so forth. You keep talking about guys in the NBA who are for the most part already physically mature and older than Davis (for comparison's sake Kenneth Faried is 23 in November i.e. a 4 year physical maturity gap even though Faried isn't even really a post player but I digress). Anthony Davis is 19 years old, hasn't stepped a foot on court in an NBA jersey. You're already proclaiming him to be too slight of frame yet his wide shoulders and the fact that he's already 220 (Faried again for Comparison's sake is about 6'8 230 lbs what terrifying mass) at the age of 19 suggests he still has yet to mature physically. As I already stated his physical peak has yet to be achieved and unlike John Henson who's pretty much at his max Davis can still put on another 20-30 lbs without sacrificing speed and athleticism.

This "he's too skinny/frail" whatever sentiment really has no weight in the current NBA as most players rarely play in the post for starters, and generally are more out on the perimeter. Hell if Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins (who literally have absolutely no sense of a post game or barely register the ability to dribble) can be effective in today's NBA I don't see why a 6'10-6'11 220 lbs 19 year old with an elite skill, still growing, developing, and maturing can't find a niche in the game today.



Didn't notice West but it's easy to see that season at least the injury has made him flash out farther away from the rim (his at rim attempt per game are at a career low even with a per 40 adjustment while his field goal% at rim are his 2nd lowest of career) not to mention he hasn't posted nearly as much as in his NO days.

How can you not see the hypocrisy in the bold statement? It's ok for you guys to claim he's going to be a franchise player base on the same info available to everybody, but I can't say otherwise with the same amount of info.

You can claim Davis will get stronger without losing anything. How do you know? That's right your basing it on his body type. So by your own comment your statement is flawed. It's funny how you guys do that, but are quick to call me out for the samething. LOL I'm the one grasping at straws though.

[OSUFan_88]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Is Kevin Garnett too small to play PF?

Just sayin, Throne...you're some way off here on saying Davis is too small to bang in the NBA. Most PF's aren't bangers anymore, especially on the offensive side. The NBA has been trending towards stretch 4's for years now, and Davis will be the crown jewel of those players but also can bang a little bit in the post.

Body type wise, I see no reason why he can't go Dwight and bulk up another 30 pounds once he gets into an NBA training regime. Or he could put on slim weight and put on about 15 and maintain his agility.

Either way, saying he won't be able to bang because he is small now, which is wrong, is kinda foolish and short sighted. But, march to the beat of your own drum if you must.

[wwharton]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Not agreeing with da's logic, but I'll say that I don't think Davis will ever be a franchise player either. I think he's more more likely to end up being Camby/Chandler (which is still very good and is a necessity in my opinion) than Garnett/Bosh (meaning a guy that can take over a game on the offensive end and be an MVP candidate in Garnett's case).

In my opinion, Davis's jumpshot should be much better than it currently is considering he's been a guard most of his life. It's interesting to me that he was a guard for most of his life, and yet his post defense is easily his biggest strength but his jumpshot isn't that great.

One of the guys on ESPN was saying that he thinks the team that lands Davis will be playoff bound his rookie season because he's a Tim Duncan-esq player as a rookie. I don't see that at all. I think he can be very effective in pick and rolls because of his mobility and athleticism, but his offensive game is way too limited right now to take a team like the Charlotte Bobcats and make them a playoff team. If Davis is your #1 or #2 scoring option, you're going to be in for a long, long season at least for a few years.

The thing is nobody else is saying that either. I think ONE person said they thought he was a franchise changing type of player. I think he has that kind of potential but definitely not from day one, and would say expectations should be closer to a better Chandler or Camby. He's got the potential to be Garnett, but that's like saying some others have the "potential" to be Jordan. Some tasks are almost impossible to reach.

I don't know why there's a long argument about Davis being a future HOFer from Throne bc nobody else here is putting him at that level. And if his argument is simply stating why he won't be a HOFer then that's flawed logic right there anyway. 90% of the names he listed aren't HOFers. The argument just doesn't make sense at all.

Now if we are talking about whether he should be the #1 pick (we are... Throne had him listed at lower than 5 I believe before he started switching up his argument) then a ceiling of Garnett with a floor that looks like it'd be around Chandler/Camby level for a kid who's 19 and has the build and background to look like a high growth candidate is definitely a #1 pick. When we look at the rest of the draft class that is very lacking in low risk/high reward players, it's even more of a no brainer.

Yeah, I mean, Davis has all the physical tools to become an all-star in the NBA. I'm not even saying there's no chance it'll happen. But I don't think he's a lock to reach that point at all. His game is still incredibly raw on the offensive end, and like I said, it's interesting to me that the guy has been a guard for most of his life, and yet his jumpshot is iffy enough that a lot of the NCAA teams wouldn't even really guard him from around the free throw line. I think he'll have to add more muscle before his defensive game ends up being elite, but I could see him being sort of the Joakim Noah type guy where he's high motor, and he can defend both the post and sometimes the perimeter decently well. I think Davis will be a better offensive player (I think it's kind of obvious), but I don't think Davis will ever reach Kevin Garnett status, but who knows.

As a HS coach I'll tell you that most crazy athletic kids can't shoot all that well on the high school level. They don't have to. That's why I feel these kids need a step between HS and the NBA, be it college, Euro league, whatever. It forces them to develop areas of their game at a level where their strengths generally can't be completely erased. The super insane athletes can still lean on their strengths while improving these weaknesses in the Pros. Remember that fresh out of HS, LBJ's jump shot was about as ugly as Cartwright. Rose's jumper after only one year in college was already mentioned, and we can throw Wall's in there too. Then there's the poster boy, Rondo... and these are all guards.

Davis' history as a guard should make it easy for him to learn to improve his jump shot and just general movement on the court. Lots of tall kids that have played the post their entire life can barely catch a ball at the high post, pivot and hand it off to a guard at 19. You've gotta fight through that comfort level before you can make any real progress on improving your game, and he should have a leg up there.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Is Kevin Garnett too small to play PF?

I think Garnett is the exception not the rule. Also I think although he was slender he is/was a lot stronger than Davis.

Just sayin, Throne...you're some way off here on saying Davis is too small to bang in the NBA. Most PF's aren't bangers anymore, especially on the offensive side. The NBA has been trending towards stretch 4's for years now, and Davis will be the crown jewel of those players but also can bang a little bit in the post.

I'll agree the league has changed some. However I strongly disagree with the notion that most PF's aren't physical in the paint whether it's defensively/offensively/rebounding.

Body type wise, I see no reason why he can't go Dwight and bulk up another 30 pounds once he gets into an NBA training regime. Or he could put on slim weight and put on about 15 and maintain his agility.

Agree to disagree again. Not many players can tack on 15-30lbs without losing athleticism.

Either way, saying he won't be able to bang because he is small now, which is wrong, is kinda foolish and short sighted. But, march to the beat of your own drum if you must.

Once again your opinion. 1st nobody can be wrong or right until it plays out.

I don't think there's anything foolish when I've seen Daivs at the college level have problems "banging". Guys at the next level are much stronger, skilled, and/or athletic in the post. To me him struggling in this area is a much more natural conclusion than the opposite.

[wwharton]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

I think Garnett is the exception not the rule. Also I think although he was slender he is/was a lot stronger than Davis.

I asked this before but got no answer so again, how do you know Garnett was so much stronger than Davis at 19? What is this based on?

[KG]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

This wasn't a list of players who were better than Davis. It was a list of players who are physical in the paint. Players who will look to exploit weaker post players.

I look at that list and see mostly face-up bigs. All of them have the ability to score with physicality but most of them are more effective facing players up.

It's hard to project a kid lime Davis because he's still growing into his frame but by seeing his improvement throughout the year, demeanor on the court, and the ability to affect the game without scoring I'm more inclined to think he'll be a better pro than Robinson & Sullinger.

He might get pushed around if he lets guys get deep post position but his length and motor are going to alter a lot of shots. He's not as refined as Sullinger offensively but in my eyes he's ahead of Robinson.

[wwharton]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Adding on to my last question about Garnett, lets look at some fun facts...

Garnett entered the NBA at almost 20 years old (19 years and 11 months). His first season he averaged 10.4 points, 6.3 rebounds and 1.8 assists and was only All Rookie 2nd Team.

His 2nd year his numbers were better (17 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists with great defensive numbers of 2.1 blocks and 1.7 steals). They brought in Marbury and were a playoff team!!! With a 40-42 record.

Summarizing the rest, Garnett's had some dog teams and some great teams, and didn't win a championship until the downside of his career... usually getting bumped in the 1st round when he's been the "franchise" player for his team.

The point is, there's no question of Garnett as a future HOFer, and while his numbers (and contributions based on team record and success) shouldn't be expected of any kid who hasn't played a minute yet, I don't see why they're completely out of the question.

No one is calling Davis a future HOFer or franchise player, but here's one who is definitely both... and based on the discussion of what we should expect of Davis in the next year or two, according to da Throne maybe Garnett wouldn't have been considered as much when he first entered the league either.

[cubsball899]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

can we just get off the anthony davis debate please? its not going anywhere at all

[mdmgrand]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

I think Davis will be more Marcus Camby than Garnett. Camby with a Mid-Range, which would still be pretty good. I don't think he will reach mid-career Garnett, who posted insane numbers, and led the league in rebounding for four years.

2002-2003
PPG: 23.0
RPG: 13.4
APG: 6.0

2003-2004
PPG: 24.2
RPG: 13.9
APG: 5.0

[nyqua]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Other PF/C who came into the NBA with similar measurables to Davis:

Kevin Garnett: 6'11", 217 pounds
Tyson Chandler: 6'11", 224 pounds
Marcus Camby: 6'11", 223 pounds
Joakim Noah: 6'10.5", 223 pounds
Chris Bosh: 6'10.25", 225 pounds
Dikembe Mutombo: 7' 1.25", 228 pounds

Also:
David West: 226 pounds
Drew Gooden: 227 pounds
Kurt Thomas: 221 pounds

The kid is 19. He WILL put on weight once he starts working out in an NBA weight training program. It's not like those guys listed above came into the NBA at their current playing weight and size.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

can we just get off the anthony davis debate please? its not going anywhere at all

It really shouldn't have even gone this far, honestly.

But saying someone won't make it in the NBA because of their body frame, even though people have posted examples of other players(who didn't turn out too bad BTW)who came into the league just as small as Davis is stupid and ridiculous. You don't need to be 240-250 to play PF/C and even have a solid career in the NBA anymore.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

What's stupid and ridiculous is putting words in others peoples comments.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

I don't think Davis game/body translate to the NBA game. I think his frame can't handle the necessary weight he'll need to gain to play in the post, and I don't believe his skillset will ever be refined enough for him to make a living as a wing player.

Maybe I'm nitpicking, but there's a big difference in those two guys bodies. When I see Dwight his frame looks muscular while Anthony looks frail. He looks like Brittney Grinder with a short hair cut and a Kentucky jersey.

That doesn't make it accurate. And even if it is that doesn't mean they have the same build. I agree I don't think his frame alone will be why he fails to meet expectations. However I believe it'll play a major role.

Surprised so many people are so quick to ignore his frail frame. Outside of KG(who I think was stronger and more skilled than AD will ever be) what PF in the last dozen or so years has been an all-star as slender as Davis? Are better yet how many productive 4's in the league at all that slight of frame?

This is where we disagree. I've given him credit for the skills I've seen him display.

Once again I've never seen a player this frail looking. If you guys think he has the same body type of Garnett and Bosh than this discussion will never get pass that topic so no need to discuss it.

I'm sticking to my evaluation. If people are expecting a franchise changer I think they're going to be highly dissappointed. I think he's at best the 7th or 8th best player in this draft.

What's stupid and ridiculous is putting words in others peoples comments.

You're the one who made a big freakin' deal about his frame, saying how it will be an issue yet it's been proven that guys like him(as far as frame/size)have come into the league before and have adjusted just fine.

But I'm putting words in people's mouths though.

Anyway to finally kill that issue, when are these UK Dudes going to announce if they are entering the Draft or not?