2012 NBA Draft Discussion

[DukeC]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

This is where we disagree. I've given him credit for the skills I see with him.

Once again I've never seen a player this frail looking. If you guys think he has the same body type of Garnett and Bosh than this discussion will never get pass that topic so no need to discuss it.

I'm sticking to my evaluation. If people are expecting a franchise changer I think they're going to be highly dissappointed. I think he's at best the 7th or 8th best player in this draft.

Are we conveniently forgetting Kevin Durant. Seriously?

Stop exaggerating to make a point. It's not working.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Are we conveniently forgetting Kevin Durant. Seriously?

Stop exaggerating to make a point. It's not working.

At this point of the discussion I thought it was understood I meant frail for a post player. Kevin Durant is a wing player. With the hand checking rules body mass and strength aren't nearly as important as it is in the post area. I've already made that point.

[ehh]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Davis was not a great defender in the post when his man had the ball and pros are certainly much craftier and more skilled than anyone Davis faced at UK. He'll probably be able to be posted up next year but we'll see how things go a few years down the line.

[BlueNGold]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

At this point of the discussion I thought it was understood I meant frail for a post player. Kevin Durant is a wing player. With the hand checking rules body mass and strength aren't nearly as important as it is in the post area. I've already made that point.

Sure, but pretty much half of the league's bigs play more of a Euro-style game than a traditional back-down and overpower you type of game. Nowadays most bigs are content playing a face-up game and shooting mid-range j's. It's not like there's a bunch of Shaq's and Hakeem's in the league.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

At this point of the discussion I thought it was understood I meant frail for a post player. Kevin Durant is a wing player. With the hand checking rules body mass and strength aren't nearly as important as it is in the post area. I've already made that point.

And yet you're still contradicting yourself.

Continue on though.

[RajonRondo9Celtics]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

And yet you're still contradicting yourself.

Continue on though.

How is he contradicting himself? he's saying that his strength will be a problem in the post because you need more strength in that area due to being allowed to bump and push more, while kevin durant was a perimeter player where strength and mass doesn't matter as much because hand checking isn't allowed. you can get away with being skinny on the perimeter, it's a lot harder to get away with it in the post where its much more physical

I do disagree with him though, i think Davis is definitely a franchise player

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Sure, but pretty much half of the league's bigs play more of a Euro-style game than a traditional back-down and overpower you type of game. Nowadays most bigs are content playing a face-up game and shooting mid-range j's. It's not like there's a bunch of Shaq's and Hakeem's in the league.

Here are some of the physical PF's in the league

Z.Randolph
B.Bass
G.Davis
B.Griffin
E.Brand
C.Boozer
P.Milsap
P.Gasol
D.West
K.Love
T.Booker
K.Faried
C.Landry
D.Lee
L.Scola
D.Gooden

That's only starters and is more than half the league. Not to mention that out of the top 3 projected PF's in this draft(Davis/Robinson/Sullinger) Thomas and Jared both are back to the basket players. Sure there are a lot of "Euro" style players, but the majority of key PF's in this league are still physical in the paint guys.

[KG]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

There's a lot of junp shooters on that list (West, Bass, etc...). Not to mention guys that struggle when guarded by lengthy defenders (Griffin, Lee, Boozer).

Outside of a few names, I'd take Davis over most of those guys.

[RedSceptile]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

You're argument is really strawman logic and an ouroboros loop. You keep stating the same thing over and over again. Anthony Davis is 19, about 220 and has probably a 5-7 year window until he reaches his physical, athletic, and weight peak. It's funny how you're making him out to be some frail athletic post player yet he's shown that he's got good strength and a pretty solid base. He's not going to turn into Wilt Chamberlain in terms of size but I'm pretty sure he could survive being 6'10-6'11 and around 240-245 range. It's not like there are a bunch of huge bruisers in the league right now, most of the aforementioned are more spot up shooters, or don't even use their size effectively.

Wait until he at least suits up before making such a defining statement no?

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

There's a lot of junp shooters on that list (West, Bass, etc...). Not to mention guys that struggle when guarded by lengthy defenders (Griffin, Lee, Boozer).

Outside of a few names, I'd take Davis over most of those guys.

This wasn't a list of players who were better than Davis. It was a list of players who are physical in the paint. Players who will look to exploit weaker post players.

[RedSceptile]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Let's take a look at that list:

Of this list Randolph, Gasol, Love, Scola, Milsap, possibly Booker and Gooden, Brand (whose post game is still more or less get as close to basket as possible and shoot no real shimmys, counters etc.) have good-elite post games.

The majority of the list either have bulk and no really elite post game, play more on the perimeter (you can classify Love as such really) or have problem with length.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

You're argument is really strawman logic and an ouroboros loop. You keep stating the same thing over and over again. Anthony Davis is 19, about 220 and has probably a 5-7 year window until he reaches his physical, athletic, and weight peak. It's funny how you're making him out to be some frail athletic post player yet he's shown that he's got good strength and a pretty solid base. He's not going to turn into Wilt Chamberlain in terms of size but I'm pretty sure he could survive being 6'10-6'11 and around 240-245 range. It's not like there are a bunch of huge bruisers in the league right now, most of the aforementioned are more spot up shooters, or don't even use their size effectively.

Wait until he at least suits up before making such a defining statement no?

Lol its to early to point out flaws in his game, but it's not too early to project him as a HOFer franchise changer. Yet everybody question my logic SMH.

I'm not sure when Davis has shown good strength and base. When you read scouting reports that's probably listed as his biggest flaws. And it's what I see when I watch footage of Davis. Ofcourse he may fill out and maybe exceed expectations. It's one person opinion based on the times I've seen him play and the vids that I watch from him. I see a frame thats more frail (for a post player) that I can ever remember seeing. A guy who at times was pushed around by college level talent and bodies. It didn't matter in college because he had the athleticism and length to recover. I don't see that happening at the next level. I have serious doubts that he'll be able to add sufficient weight while maintaining enough of an athletic advantage to be an "franchise changer". Apparently thinking for yourself is flawed logic.

[da ThRONe]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Let's take a look at that list:

Of this list Randolph, Gasol, Love, Scola, Milsap, possibly Booker and Gooden, Brand (whose post game is still more or less get as close to basket as possible and shoot no real shimmys, counters etc.) have good-elite post games.

The majority of the list either have bulk and no really elite post game, play more on the perimeter (you can classify Love as such really) or have problem with length.

Love doesn't average 13 board a game because he's a perimeter player.

Have you ever thought that these guys aren't overly successful post wise because they play against other NBA bodies and that's why they don't over power other players that are equal to them in that area. I've seen guys like Bass and Glen Davis muscle players. Maybe not as consistent, but they most certainly have the ability.

And how you leave David West off the post power game list shows you have flaws in your criticism of my list. As a die hard Hornets fan I can tell you West may be one of the strongest post players in the league.

[Yeah...THAT Guy]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

Not agreeing with da's logic, but I'll say that I don't think Davis will ever be a franchise player either. I think he's more more likely to end up being Camby/Chandler (which is still very good and is a necessity in my opinion) than Garnett/Bosh (meaning a guy that can take over a game on the offensive end and be an MVP candidate in Garnett's case).

In my opinion, Davis's jumpshot should be much better than it currently is considering he's been a guard most of his life. It's interesting to me that he was a guard for most of his life, and yet his post defense is easily his biggest strength but his jumpshot isn't that great.

One of the guys on ESPN was saying that he thinks the team that lands Davis will be playoff bound his rookie season because he's a Tim Duncan-esq player as a rookie. I don't see that at all. I think he can be very effective in pick and rolls because of his mobility and athleticism, but his offensive game is way too limited right now to take a team like the Charlotte Bobcats and make them a playoff team. If Davis is your #1 or #2 scoring option, you're going to be in for a long, long season at least for a few years.

[RedSceptile]

Re: 2012 NBA Draft Discussion

19 years old, hasn't played in the NBA yet.

That's why your logic is flawed.

I remember when LeBron came into the league he was an atrocious defender, now he's one of the best at his position. I remember when Dwyane Wade came into the league and his best comparison was Tim Hardaway. I remember when Derrick Rose didn't have a jumpshot. etc. etc. etc.

Just because something (or someone) is a certain way at first doesn't mean they won't change get better/worse so on and so forth. You keep talking about guys in the NBA who are for the most part already physically mature and older than Davis (for comparison's sake Kenneth Faried is 23 in November i.e. a 4 year physical maturity gap even though Faried isn't even really a post player but I digress). Anthony Davis is 19 years old, hasn't stepped a foot on court in an NBA jersey. You're already proclaiming him to be too slight of frame yet his wide shoulders and the fact that he's already 220 (Faried again for Comparison's sake is about 6'8 230 lbs what terrifying mass) at the age of 19 suggests he still has yet to mature physically. As I already stated his physical peak has yet to be achieved and unlike John Henson who's pretty much at his max Davis can still put on another 20-30 lbs without sacrificing speed and athleticism.

This "he's too skinny/frail" whatever sentiment really has no weight in the current NBA as most players rarely play in the post for starters, and generally are more out on the perimeter. Hell if Joel Anthony and Kendrick Perkins (who literally have absolutely no sense of a post game or barely register the ability to dribble) can be effective in today's NBA I don't see why a 6'10-6'11 220 lbs 19 year old with an elite skill, still growing, developing, and maturing can't find a niche in the game today.

Love doesn't average 13 board a game because he's a perimeter player.

Have you ever thought that these guys aren't overly successful post wise because they play against other NBA bodies and that's why they don't over power other players that are equal to them in that area. I've seen guys like Bass and Glen Davis muscle players. Maybe not as consistent, but they most certainly have the ability.

And how you leave David West off the post power game list shows you have flaws in your criticism of my list. As a die hard Hornets fan I can tell you West may be one of the strongest post players in the league.

Didn't notice West but it's easy to see that season at least the injury has made him flash out farther away from the rim (his at rim attempt per game are at a career low even with a per 40 adjustment while his field goal% at rim are his 2nd lowest of career) not to mention he hasn't posted nearly as much as in his NO days.