The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

[cima]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Zach Lowe agrees with me by the way, so I'm done with this debate. I'm gonna let him break it down for y'all.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16097908/2016-nba-finals-cleveland-cavaliers-bring-kevin-love-bench

You can win the title worrying about covering for one weak defender. Trying to cover for two stresses a defense to its breaking point, which is why I wrote before the Finals that perhaps the biggest question hovering over the series was whether the Cavs could survive with both Love and Irving on the floor. Against 28 teams, that isn't in question. Against the Warriors, it is, and mid-June is not a time for coddling anyone's ego.

Love can still play an important role coming off the bench. The Warriors have stamped Cleveland's much-heralded, weirdo second unit of Matthew Dellavedova, Iman Shumpert, Jefferson, James and Channing Frye right out of the series; the Cavs haven't really found a workable alternative yet. Even amid the pall of Game 3, Golden State rallied at the start of the second quarter to make a game of it.

Love could serve as the fulcrum of a revamped bench offense, and he'll get the ball more in that set-up that he ever will starting alongside Irving and LeBron. There is only one ball, as the kids say. Love still brings enough value as third option that bringing him off the bench won't necessarily turn him into Cleveland's version of Enes Kanter.

Love can shoot 3s, crash the offensive boards and toss smart passes all over the floor. If he hangs with Iguodala or Barnes on defense and busts it in transition, he can earn extra minutes with Cleveland's A-team at the end of each half.

Cleveland needs to suck in that help somehow, and Love's post game -- in the right matchup, at least -- represents one avenue for that. But given their success in Game 3, the Cavs should transform Love into a bench weapon.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

We can all find articles that will side with our arguments man, lol.

All I know is that argument can only go one way after tonight.

[cima]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

We can all find articles that will side with our arguments man, lol.

All I know is that argument can only go one way after tonight.

I'm sure you can, but the difference is Zach Lowe is extremely well-respected, especially on OS.

[DieHardYankee26]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

If Zach Lowe had his way Golden State would've traded Klay for Kevin Love lol. He's just a man with an opinion like the rest of us, however supported by stats and gifs it may be.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

So should we just start multi quoting now so we don't have to worry about not addressing specific comments tomorrow since we need to know exactly who said what to address a pre-game talking point these days?

[Hockeynut99]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Zach Lowe agrees with me by the way, so I'm done with this debate. I'm gonna let him break it down for y'all.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16...vin-love-bench

Lmao ok....

[cima]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

So should we just start multi quoting now so we don't have to worry about not addressing specific comments tomorrow since we need to know exactly who said what to address a pre-game talking point these days?

Sure. I'm predicting a Cavs W by 15 and Love coming off the bench. I am in the pro-Cavs W crowd and pro-Love off the bench crowd.

What's your prediction?

[Hockeynut99]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

All my opinion and agruements can be found with this fact finder. Google.com

[Hockeynut99]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Warriors win by10.

[wwharton]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Saying Love or Kyrie's offense will be negated by what they give up on defense and the results will be the same is just another way of saying that they won't make a difference. Don't be so literal.

THAT still isn't what was said. This is what you do... take what was actually said and tweak it to a point that you can argue it away. I can be literal on what I said... I said it lol. How you gonna tell ME what I meant?

Spoiler

I never said winning without Love was the reason they won, it was the fact that they had a far more athletic with RJ in the starting lineup as opposed to Love which makes a HUGE difference on defense, especially the switching. But the point still stands that without Love playing with the starters, that's one less guy you have to worry about getting involved (and like I said, we always hear about Love needs to get involved early to play good). That a long with playing at home made a difference. As far as Kyrie goes, he's just flat out playing better defense and he's CAPABLE of doing so; Love is only capable of so much due to his limited athleticism.

These finals are about matchups. Regardless of the small sample size, in my opinion, it is not logical to go back to what WASN'T working in Games 1 and 2 and essentially abandon or not stick with the exact recipe that allowed you to win Game 3 extremely comfortably. I've also acknowledged that it MAY work with Love in the lineup but the advanced metrics show that the 2/5/24/23/13 lineup is more effective on both offense and defense. Was it 1 game? Yes. Does that matter when you're down 2-1 in the Finals and 1 loss away from facing elimination on the road? No it doesn't matter, it's necessary to stick with what worked until it doesn't work anymore.

You also realize that the most effective lineup in the entire playoffs in terms of Net rating was LeBron + the bench right? And that group got smoked so badly in the first 2 games that they abandoned it very quickly. I don't see anyone advocating to keep that unit together though.

Yeah, this is the same thing you've said over and over again. My response to it is the same.

And then when you factor how good the offense looked with last game's starting lineup in addition to how poor the bench has played on offense, and finally factor in that it's been proven that Love plays better when he is the #1 or #2 option on offense, why wouldn't you stick with the lineup that played well AND upgrade your bench's scoring significantly at the same time? Finally to be clear again, I'm not advocating for him to be benched entirely, but he should absolutely come off the bench and play less minutes.

Because this isn't a video game. You don't abandon the lineup, but what happened last game was last game. You don't just say "this lineup won by 30 while that lineup lost by 30 so this lineup it is." RJ can easily lay an egg tonight. TT got points and offensive boards based mostly on a bad scheme by GS (or good adjustment by CLE, however you want to look at it)... a GS adjustment could completely change his impact. How will the game flow if CLE doesn't get out to as fast of a start and Curry doesn't get 2 and 3 quick fouls? Will the issue with Klay's leg be more of a problem last game since he's had some rest or tonight now that it's stiffened? Has Smith woken up or will he be more like Games 1 and 2?

These games aren't scripted and the Warriors lost 9 games all regular season so they certainly know how to win on the road. The Cavs had a successful regular season also... with Love being the 2nd/3rd best player despite whatever defensive issues. You're looking at this at way too high a level. Even if digging deeper gives logical reason to a healthy Love coming off the bench, the things you're presenting aren't giving nearly enough to emphatically say that. If you're going to say dominoes, the real dominoes are much deeper than what you're talking about.

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Zach Lowe agrees with me by the way, so I'm done with this debate. I'm gonna let him break it down for y'all.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/16...vin-love-bench

Yup and I believe before the series even started i think it was the truehoop pod said it would be wise to separate Kyrie and Love.

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Ain't nobody questioning how respekted he is on here man, lol

[wwharton]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Yup and I believe before the series even started i think it was the truehoop pod said it would be wise to separate Kyrie and Love.

Yeah but Kyrie had an offensive explosion while the Warriors guards looked like they were sleep walking so now it's only about Love... revisionist history.

And cima, do you really think we believe OS is the only place suggesting Love should come off the bench after they won a game without him?

[King_B_Mack]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

Sure. I'm predicting a Cavs W by 15 and Love coming off the bench. I am in the pro-Cavs W crowd and pro-Love off the bench crowd.

What's your prediction?

Okay...I expect this to be a one or two possession game throughout that may finish a 10 or 11 point game based on the free throw game at the end. I expect the Warriors to bounce back and take this one off a big game down the stretch from Steph.

[cima]

Re: The Finals: Cleveland Cavaliers vs. Golden St. Warriors Part 2

THAT still isn't what was said. This is what you do... take what was actually said and tweak it to a point that you can argue it away. I can be literal on what I said... I said it lol. How you gonna tell ME what I meant?

This is getting picky, but that's LITERALLY what you said in your post (about others saying it).

Some said that having a healthy Kyrie and/or Love wouldn't have changed the results last year. Some said that the offense brought by Kyrie and Love would be evened out by the defense lost with them, making the final result the same as last year.

But I'm the one changing things that were said even though I said exactly what YOU said in your post? Okay.

Because this isn't a video game. You don't abandon the lineup, but what happened last game was last game. You don't just say "this lineup won by 30 while that lineup lost by 30 so this lineup it is." RJ can easily lay an egg tonight. TT got points and offensive boards based mostly on a bad scheme by GS (or good adjustment by CLE, however you want to look at it)... a GS adjustment could completely change his impact. How will the game flow if CLE doesn't get out to as fast of a start and Curry doesn't get 2 and 3 quick fouls? Will the issue with Klay's leg be more of a problem last game since he's had some rest or tonight now that it's stiffened? Has Smith woken up or will he be more like Games 1 and 2?

Who said it was a video game? You're a smart guy yet I'm failing to see why you're not acknowledging that Love is a bad matchup for the GS Warriors. Or are you just arguing against my specific reasoning for benching Love?

These games aren't scripted and the Warriors lost 9 games all regular season so they certainly know how to win on the road. The Cavs had a successful regular season also... with Love being the 2nd/3rd best player despite whatever defensive issues. You're looking at this at way too high a level. Even if digging deeper gives logical reason to a healthy Love coming off the bench, the things you're presenting aren't giving nearly enough to emphatically say that. If you're going to say dominoes, the real dominoes are much deeper than what you're talking about.

Matchups is my only response to this. Love is not a good matchup for The Warriors' death lineup. Nothing you can say about Love's success against 28 other teams is going to change that fact.