2017 Offseason Thread

[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Spoiler

You brought it up too man... said something like that's the organizations fault. CMH actually quoted that part of your post to elaborate on it

This is the part that he quoted from me

1. Seems to me that's a Organization issue. You got him for 8 years. Not his fault or the league's fault that his team decided to become a playoff team in his last year with them.

Here's the rest of that post:

http://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2048893217&postcount=2808

That part in particular was in reference to this from you:

I mean just because their with the team for 8 years doesn't really mean much. Not like they're contenders all those 8 years. It's not until like year 5 that they're playing near their prime level usually anyway.

Now you tell me where I mentioned their draft picks. Anywhere in this thread throughout this entire convo, please show me where I brought it up.

And how you gonna say "take away Brown which I'm not sure why we need to" when all year you were thumping your chest that the C's wasted your team's pick on him??

Pull up my search history and I guarantee it was in reference to James Young(who they took with the first pick they received from us). Ask Celtics Fans here and they'll tell you that I've always reference James Young. I've even said here during the season that I was withholding judgement on Jaylon Brown but based on what he was showing(at the time)he was looking like a hit for the Celtics.

Now, as a Net Fan, I was hoping it would be a wasted pick so the deal wouldn't look any "more" bad for us. And I made that very clear throughout the season but I never called Jaylon Brown a wasted pick. If you can find where I called him that, by all means...

The Jazz had Hayward, Gobert, Exum, Favors, etc. Why weren't they an attractive FA destination? Is it because the GM wasn't willing to get guys? Or is it because all they could get is the Joe Johnson's or Boris Diaw's of the world? Serious question.

Another poster(trekfan I believe)answered this earlier.

This really isn't hard man. You're bringing up Joe Johnson or Allen Crabbe like it's the same as signing an All Star just hitting his prime. I don't get that... it's really not comparable. JJ's 9 ppg at 36 years old is supposed to be equivalent to Boston getting Hayward or Miami/GS landing MVP's or NY getting Melo/STAT?

You're right it's not.

You got it though. Evil Big Markets are ruining the NBA. Small Market Teams have no "fair chance" to compete. I can respect it even if it all the evidence presented from everyone shows otherwise.

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Crowder is really good and on a cheap deal, he would fit on any team which is why I hope Ainge finds a way to keep him. His Advanced numbers are really good. just because Lebron toasted him and he's not Jimmy Butler people have this idea he's not good or a role player.

I dunno why you would sign and trade with Utah if he's the guy you decide to trade it would be for picks since you can't take on Salary... just take the best offer and move him there I'm not sure why Ainge would do Utah a solid lol.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Crowder is really good and on a cheap deal, he would fit on any team which is why I hope Ainge finds a way to keep him. His Advanced numbers are really good. just because Lebron toasted him and he's not Jimmy Butler people have this idea he's not good or a role player.



I dunno why you would sign and trade with Utah if he's the guy you decide to trade it would be for picks since you can't take on Salary... just take the best offer and move him there I'm not sure why Ainge would do Utah a solid lol.

So Crowder is not a role player?



I'm not saying he isn't a decent piece but y'all straight overvaluing this dude and his career 8 points a game. Oh yeah and he's 27.


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[wco81]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Crowder is really good and on a cheap deal, he would fit on any team which is why I hope Ainge finds a way to keep him. His Advanced numbers are really good. just because Lebron toasted him and he's not Jimmy Butler people have this idea he's not good or a role player.

I dunno why you would sign and trade with Utah if he's the guy you decide to trade it would be for picks since you can't take on Salary... just take the best offer and move him there I'm not sure why Ainge would do Utah a solid lol.

But wouldn't keeping him prevent Brown and Tatum from getting minutes?

If they had to play behind both Hayward and Crowder, there might not be too many minutes for their development.

[BleacherBum2310]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

But wouldn't keeping him prevent Brown and Tatum from getting minutes?

If they had to play behind both Hayward and Crowder, there might not be too many minutes for their development.

hmm idk I know expectations are high but expect a Jaylen lite rookie year for Tatum. with more Scoring.

So Crowder is not a role player?



I'm not saying he isn't a decent piece but y'all straight overvaluing this dude and his career 8 points a game. Oh yeah and he's 27.


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14/6 while shooting 40% from 3 and playing not elite level but v good defense is idk call me crazy then but I consider that good.

idk if that's role player to you okay fine but I also consider him a good player. which you acted like he wasn't.

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Late to the party:

Everything else being equal big market teams usually have an advantage over small market teams. Some of those advantages seem intrinsic for cities like New York or Los Angeles so unless you are going to have a league where every team is in a big market or small market that just something that the league has to deal with.

Thing is, how does the league deals with it? The CBA has those big fat contracts for the incumbent team that others team can match right away in free agency (players have to sign shorter deals and double dip).

Changes I would like to see would be for teams to be able to offer contracts for as much years as they like and for whichever % of the cap as they would like to to players on their own teams. Lets GM from small market teams become creative but keep in mind that this tools would be available to big market/medium market teams too of course.

[Caveman24]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Day 3 & we still on the small market thing?

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Day 3 & we still on the small market thing?

Yes, we are.

[JazzMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

...

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[wco81]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Some Jazz fans think he knew months ago what he was going to do or really considered leaving before the end of the season.

So he didn't give the team a chance to look at other free agents or trading him.

They also blame his wife for possibly pushing him to go to another city, perhaps one she thinks more glamorous.

OTOH, one guy hoped that Gronk took his wife from him.

Real salty in Salt Lake.

[Master Live 013]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

So I took a cursory look at the list of Top 10 players by PER since the 1990-1991 season which change teams for the next season by way of Free Agency (sign and trade included) and here is the list (TV market size besides the cities):

• (1996) Shaquille O'Neal 26.4 PER (3rd) from Orlando (19th) to Los Angeles (2nd).
• (2000) Grant Hill 24.5 PER (6th) from Detroit (14th) to Orlando (19th).
• (2010) LeBron James 31.1 PER (1st) from Cleveland (19th) to Miami (17th).
• (2010) Chris Bosh 25.0 PER (4th) from Toronto (5th) to Miami (17th).
• (2014) LeBron James 29.3 PER (2nd) from Miami (16th) to Cleveland (19th).
• (2015) LaMarcus Aldridge 22.8 PER (10th) from Portland (26th) to San Antonio (32nd).
• (2016) Kevin Durant 28.2 PER (2nd) from Oklahoma City (42nd) to Oakland (7th).

*PER isn't a perfect stat and if you wish to compile a similar list using VORP or Win Shares be my guest.
**I probably missed some sign and trade deals here, if you remember any that would suffice the criteria used please let me know to add him.

***Toronto is the 5th largest TV market in North America. I included Toronto and then slid all others TV markets one position downward to account for it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_top_10.html

http://www.lyonspr.com/latest-nielsen-dma-rankings/

http://www.canadatvmedia.com/canadian-television/statistics.html

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Notice how small the list is, just 7 times and 6 players (LeBron did it twice) long.

Few data points but before LeBron James and Chris Bosh went to the Miami Heat this kind of elite players or player having elite seasons before departing for a different team occurred once every 7 years on average.

After James and Bosh did it it has happened 3 times in 7 years.

Maybe next year the record gets tied or broken. A year is a lot of time but Elite players (or players that had elite seasons in 2016-2017) that could be free agents next season include: LeBron James, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Isaiah Thomas and DeMarcus Cousins.

I might try the same exercise using VORP and Win Shares to how many more cases I get.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

hmm idk I know expectations are high but expect a Jaylen lite rookie year for Tatum. with more Scoring.



14/6 while shooting 40% from 3 and playing not elite level but v good defense is idk call me crazy then but I consider that good.

idk if that's role player to you okay fine but I also consider him a good player. which you acted like he wasn't.

I didn't act like he wasn't a good player, but I am challenging the assertion that you guys have been treating the dude like he is more than what he is. He is a role player. A solid piece to add to a contending team. Trying to pretend like having to give up Crowder and two of the 50 thousand picks Danny Ainge is hoarding while asking for a team to send back their best player (Butler, George, a high first round pick etc) to a rebuilding team is somehow too much is overvaluing him. He's a 3 and D guy who's still going to get torched by the elite players in the league that he guards while being the third or fourth option on offense that's friggin 27 years old so by the time your team is done with their rebuild he'll either bail on you at the end of that "coveted" contract (which only lasts another 3 years) or he'll be turning 30 looking for one big payday for his career and about to head into the down swing of his career.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

2017 Offseason Thread

Andre Roberson has agreed to a new three-year, $30M deal with Oklahoma City, league sources tell ESPN.

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) July 6, 2017

[z Revis]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Spoiler

This is the part that he quoted from me

Here's the rest of that post:

http://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2048893217&postcount=2808

That part in particular was in reference to this from you:

Now you tell me where I mentioned their draft picks. Anywhere in this thread throughout this entire convo, please show me where I brought it up.



Pull up my search history and I guarantee it was in reference to James Young(who they took with the first pick they received from us). Ask Celtics Fans here and they'll tell you that I've always reference James Young. I've even said here during the season that I was withholding judgement on Jaylon Brown but based on what he was showing(at the time)he was looking like a hit for the Celtics.

Now, as a Net Fan, I was hoping it would be a wasted pick so the deal wouldn't look any "more" bad for us. And I made that very clear throughout the season but I never called Jaylon Brown a wasted pick. If you can find where I called him that, by all means...


Another poster(trekfan I believe)answered this earlier.


You're right it's not.

You got it though. Evil Big Markets are ruining the NBA. Small Market Teams have no "fair chance" to compete. I can respect it even if it all the evidence presented from everyone shows otherwise.

Spoiler

It's pretty much assumed if you say it's the organizations fault that draft picks are apart of the reason... if that's not the case then it's their fault for not signing FA's or trading for players which goes back to my question about what players could they actually get. I went back and read trekfan's post and it's a good point, but typically rebuilding teams aren't going to try and come out of rebuilding mode until they're at the doorstep. It wasn't until 15-16 when they barely missed out on the playoffs where they actually looked like they were coming together and on the way up. Consider that just unfortunate the way it worked out for them.

My bad if you were referencing Young and not Brown.

Now that that's out of the way, the whole point when I brought this up was never about specifically Hayward going to Boston. It's moreso what we've seen in the league for the past however many years. I know we keep talking about Miami as not a big market but wouldn't you say it's a better location to play/live than most other NBA cities? That's obviously a factor.

It's not just about market size and I know y'all wanna say that I said that but I didn't lol. Maybe that's how I came off, but all I ever said was small markets are at a disadvantage. None of this stuff about big markets ruining the league was ever said by me.

As far this evidence against me, I mean if you consider LeBron, LMA, and the Monroe/West/Milsap guys over all the perennial All Stars like LeBron, Bosh, Stoudemire, Melo, Durant, Nash, Hayward, PG so on and so on that I've listed enough evidence to convince me everything is equal then I don't know what to tell you. And before anyone says it, yes some of those you can use context and justify it like Nash ring chasing in LA, but earlier someone used West to the Spurs when he was ring chasing so I'm not sure what criteria were using here.

In the end it's just my opinion. None of this market stuff ever comes up in the NFL forums while you got people here always clowning small markets for not attracting FA's. I think there's a reason for that.. You got players like Frank Gore and Andre Johnson WANTING to play for the Colts in Indy because of Andrew Luck. Green Bay is always a hot place to sign. It doesn't seem to be that way in the NBA. It seems more about what kind of tv exposure players can get and being more in the spotlight or where they're comfortable living while building the next super team. The NFL's system may not be most fair for players, but it is for teams. It's the opposite in the NBA(in my opinion again). So the most logical conclusion would be to meet somewhere in the middle.

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[roadman]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

This is for laughs and giggles, nothing more.

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