2017 Offseason Thread

[jeremym480]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Y'all talking up Jae like he's a 2nd or 3rd option on a contender. He's a solid 3 and D guy, but he's not a good enough defender to bother elite players, and he can't really create offense. He's a good role player. As far as GH, a lot of Celtics fans are acting like he's this missing piece that's gonna take y'all to the Finals. I've seen a few guys on Twitter say they have someone to match up with LeBron, it's hilarious.

Back to Jae, sure he has a great contract, but he doesn't have much trade value. He's not a building block for a bad team, isn't getting anyone over the edge, and contenders aren't going to be willing trade much for him.

If he isn't involved in this Hayward sign and trade I'm hearing about I don't think anyone will trade much for him.

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I don't think I've ever seen anyone say either of those three statements that I put in the bold..... and I read a lot of stuff on Twitter.

[Majingir]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Supposedly Chauncey was offered half of the average salary of a new GM.

The other half goes to GM Lebron

[young22]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say either of those three statements that I put in the bold..... and I read a lot of stuff on Twitter.

Just now in this thread some Celtics fan was calling Crowder "highly coveted".

And idk where you been at, Celtics fans on Twitter been acting like Hayward is gonna push them over Cleveland. We're still gonna beat y'all in 6 and that's facts. LeBron will kill Hayward, just like he kills everyone.

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[ricky24]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Y'all talking up Jae like he's a 2nd or 3rd option on a contender.

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Nope. We don't. When you say something like this I stop reading your post. It's an extreme exaggeration.

[ricky24]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Just now in this thread some Celtics fan was calling Crowder "highly coveted".

And idk where you been at, Celtics fans on Twitter been acting like Hayward is gonna push them over Cleveland. We're still gonna beat y'all in 6 and that's facts. LeBron will kill Hayward, just like he kills everyone.

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Hayward gets them closer to CLE. Nobody I know says he puts them over the top. CLE is only an issue for next season though.

At least I know where you're coming from now reading your second paragraph. Stop labeling a whole fanbase because of what a couple people say on twitter. It's not a great look.

[King_B_Mack]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

The package for George was said to be more than that. But that wouldn't fit the picture you're trying to paint, so by all means don't let that stop you.

And sticking to what's been getting said in here for the last two years of these Celtic trade rumors wouldn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. I'm talking about the deals you guys have balked at in here and countered with every time a report would come out. Pushing Crowder as this centerpiece of any trade for Butler, George or whoever the C's have been linked to. My point was pretty clear to start this. Pack asked why they would even entertain a sign and trade with Utah and I answered that the value of the guys you've been trying to talk up as these huge assets around the league just aren't what you were pushing them as without those draft picks attached which is CLEARLY why Utah is even an option.


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[ProfessaPackMan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

I know you like to give Deron ****, but it's pretty amazing that they signed a PG (Calderon) who's actually worse than him. Deron must be asking for too much


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Both of them are trash anyway and they both need to disappear.

But his sorry *** is in no position to be asking for too much of anything, much less money.

[trekfan]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

It's pretty much assumed if you say it's the organizations fault that draft picks are apart of the reason... if that's not the case then it's their fault for not signing FA's or trading for players which goes back to my question about what players could they actually get. I went back and read trekfan's post and it's a good point, but typically rebuilding teams aren't going to try and come out of rebuilding mode until they're at the doorstep. It wasn't until 15-16 when they barely missed out on the playoffs where they actually looked like they were coming together and on the way up. Consider that just unfortunate the way it worked out for them.

My bad if you were referencing Young and not Brown.

Now that that's out of the way, the whole point when I brought this up was never about specifically Hayward going to Boston. It's moreso what we've seen in the league for the past however many years. I know we keep talking about Miami as not a big market but wouldn't you say it's a better location to play/live than most other NBA cities? That's obviously a factor.

It's not just about market size and I know y'all wanna say that I said that but I didn't lol. Maybe that's how I came off, but all I ever said was small markets are at a disadvantage. None of this stuff about big markets ruining the league was ever said by me.

As far this evidence against me, I mean if you consider LeBron, LMA, and the Monroe/West/Milsap guys over all the perennial All Stars like LeBron, Bosh, Stoudemire, Melo, Durant, Nash, Hayward, PG so on and so on that I've listed enough evidence to convince me everything is equal then I don't know what to tell you. And before anyone says it, yes some of those you can use context and justify it like Nash ring chasing in LA, but earlier someone used West to the Spurs when he was ring chasing so I'm not sure what criteria were using here.

In the end it's just my opinion. None of this market stuff ever comes up in the NFL forums while you got people here always clowning small markets for not attracting FA's. I think there's a reason for that.. You got players like Frank Gore and Andre Johnson WANTING to play for the Colts in Indy because of Andrew Luck. Green Bay is always a hot place to sign. It doesn't seem to be that way in the NBA. It seems more about what kind of tv exposure players can get and being more in the spotlight or where they're comfortable living while building the next super team. The NFL's system may not be most fair for players, but it is for teams. It's the opposite in the NBA(in my opinion again). So the most logical conclusion would be to meet somewhere in the middle.


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The highlighted parts above I want to explore a bit, because -- from where I'm coming from -- those two parts are important.

1. On the point about Miami -- let's face it, it's a nice place to live. But is Boston nicer? Objectively, no -- it's colder, more cramped, and the opportunities for non-basketball stuff are smaller than Miami. Gordon Hayward -- and a number of other free agents in recent years -- have met with Miami, have been given the Pat Riley "look at all my rings" treatment, but none have signed since LeBron left.

2. On the point about the NFL teams, where players like Frank Gore and Andre Johnson signed with the Colts -- yeah, Andrew Luck had a lot to do with it, no doubt. He's a generational talent who -- if the Colts don't get him a solid offensive line and a defense that doesn't bleed points -- might end up being the Dan Marino/Phillp Rivers of his generation.

I think NBA players DO want to play with other good, generational players, regardless of location; LeBron has proved this in Cleveland. Since he's been there, they've had guys join up with him.

Since he left Miami, the Heat haven't had much go right in free agency. Maybe LeBron put out word that ownership didn't want to pay the luxury tax to win, maybe it was the way they lowballed Wade and didn't give him the Kobe treatment, or maybe it was how the whole Chris Bosh situation played out.

Whatever the case, Miami is a nicer market to live and work in than Boston, but they missed Hayward and Durant like everyone else. Players in the NBA, to my eyes, don't seem to decide where to play based on how much national exposure they can get nowadays.

With the invention of League Pass, no team is without some level of national exposure. The Internet, thanks to GIFs, YouTube, and Twitter, make any player a viral star if they do enough. Sports blogging has all but replaced local coverage provided by major networks like ESPN or FS1.

We live in an age where NBA players can have homes in any city they want, play where they want, and not be locked out of the big money ... unless they do something ill-advised, like George Hill did by turning down the mega-extension he was offered by the Jazz during the season and betting he could get more on the open market.

He bet wrong. But, on the other side of that equation, is a guy like Dion Waiters, who bet on himself last year and took a small, one-year deal with the Heat and thrived in South Beach. He's re-signed with them on a solid deal. He might be there, next season, pitching a major free agent to join him in South Beach (assuming Miami can clear their cap sheet, because it's gonna be a mess the next few years thanks to that Tyler Johnson contract).

Traditionally, larger markets=bigger national TV exposure which=more money, but in the last 5-7 years, that calculus has changed dramatically thanks to:

A) the ton of money injected into the league thanks to the new TV deal
B) the various ways a player can be seen by people thanks to the Internet
C) the willingness for players to leave money on the table to do what they want, largely because of A and B.

If larger markets were really the only way players could be selected for All-Star teams, All-NBA teams, (thanks to rampant national exposure) and get that sweet, sweet money, LeBron would have never signed back in Cleveland -- he would have ran off to the Lakers and fulfilled the fantasies of Jim Buss.

LeBron, Wade, Bosh would have never signed in Miami -- rather, they'd take their talents to the largest market with the most exposure. So, in 2010, the Knicks would have got them.

Players will go where other talent is, they will go where they have the best chance to achieve their goals, and they will gravitate towards franchises with stable ownership and competent front offices. This is why the Lakers and Knicks have been so poor at recruiting star free agents in the last few years, because they have failed one or both those qualifiers.

Miami has struck out because the best player of his generation willingly left them over ownership's reluctance to spend for a title. Dan Gilbert may be going down that same path now as he refuses to offer market-average pay for a guy to GM his team.

PG left Indiana because Larry Bird went and tried to change the team into an up-tempo squad ... then hired Nate McMillian, the definition of a slow-tempo coach, to run that. He then traded away one of PG's guys in George Hill for Jeff Teague, a downgrade. Bird screwed it up and didn't even bother to stay around to clean up his mess, he up and left; the front office mismanaged things and George wanted out, let them know, and they kept mismanaging things.

Stars leaving their current teams for new ones usually have a common thread: chronic front office mismanagement, ownership issues, or "can't pass this up" opportunities somewhere else.

LeBron leaving Cleveland the first time was due to front office failures and ownership issues. He left Miami because ownership didn't want to pay to win. He looks like he's gearing up to leave Cleveland again due to the same reasons.

Hayward left the Jazz not because of front office mismanagement -- Utah hit on more of their draft picks than missed (but Exum looks like a big miss). They certainly waited, in my opinion, too long to get real about winning and hiring Ty Corbin was a disaster. Their ownership is one of the best in the league -- good at signing checks, staying out of the news, and not making a fuss.

But Hayward had an opportunity he couldn't pass up -- play for his old college coach, roll as a leader -- not THE guy, but A guy -- on the East's best regular season team (by record) last season. Join a franchise that had stayed competitive while also robbing the Nets blind, and take a much easier path to the Finals, assuming they can get past LeBron.

Hayward and LeBron didn't leave for national exposure or more money in bigger markets. They can get that anywhere. It's the other stuff -- the human things, like playing for a coach you loved as a kid or playing near the place you grew up -- that tipped the scales.

Ultimately, athletes are humans, too.

[areobee401]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Twitter is a cesspool. Don't use it as a barometer to measure a fanbase.

And sticking to what's been getting said in here for the last two years of these Celtic trade rumors wouldn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. I'm talking about the deals you guys have balked at in here and countered with every time a report would come out. Pushing Crowder as this centerpiece of any trade for Butler, George or whoever the C's have been linked to. My point was pretty clear to start this. Pack asked why they would even entertain a sign and trade with Utah and I answered that the value of the guys you've been trying to talk up as these huge assets around the league just aren't what you were pushing them as without those draft picks attached which is CLEARLY why Utah is even an option.


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Crowder was never pushed as the centerpiece of any trade involving the players listed. He would be included in a package of multiple players. The centerpiece of any deal would have been draft picks. That is an indisputable fact. Furthermore players like Smart, Bradley and him are always mentioned in trade rumors because teams around the league value them as roster pieces. This coming from national NBA reporters with no ties to the Celtics. Which disputes your claim of Celtics fans building up these guys as more than what they are. Not the 2nd or 3rd option on a good team, just valueable role players to fill out a good team's roster. Once again an indisputable fact.

[33JAF]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Only year one in his max he signed last year.

Arena will be ready next season.

Not worried about the Greek Freak.

More worried about JKidd and FO building team around Greek Freak.

We have almost all the pieces we need to contend, just gotta stay healthy and build through experience. Obviously Giannis is a proven top 10/15 player, Jabari and Khris are both All Star level players when healthy. Thon is going to be a stud. Henson is the only contract I would be trying to get rid of. Delly and Tele are both capable players who just had down years.

I don't think we need to be in a hurry to shed all of the bad contracts right now. I'm all in with this core of players, and we have everyone's bird rights and billionaire owners.

Worst case scenario is not re-signing Jabari on an injury discount and he gets a max from someone like the Nets next year and we overpay to match. That could hurt when we have to re-sign Midds in 2 or 3 years. Otherwise cap isn't an issue until Brogdon and Thon's rookie contracts are up, unless we have our eyes on trying to get a big name FA next summer.

[z Revis]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Trekfan I'm not going quote your post because Pack gonna start swingin lol(next time try and spoiler something that long for the Tapatalk users), but you make great points. My question is why does it seem like the Spurs are the only small market that can attractive FA's? Sure management/FO's could be the reason, but why do nearly all of them seem to have that problem?

NO - couldn't build around CP3 well enough and had to let him go. They have Davis now who will probably walk if things don't improve.
MIN - They haven't been to the playoffs in over a decade.
OKC - Couldn't do enough to convince Durant to stay
Utah - Couldn't do enough to convince Hayward to stay
Indy - same as OKC/Utah
Sacramento - Couldn't build much to help Boogie, traded him.
Orlando - Couldn't do enough to convince Dwight to stay and haven't done anything since he left.

I don't need to go on.. None of those teams have signed any major free agents. SA is the only attractive small market destination. Memphis and Portland have been solid teams for awhile but neither of them have signed anyone major either except their own guys. Why? Is it poor management or the owners? It's a bit strange to have all the cheap owners and poor GM's all on small market teams lol.. but meanwhile you can have a team like the Knicks who have been poorly managed for seemingly forever yet they can go out and sign Amare and Melo?


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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

We gutted half our roster IN A TRADE for Carmelo. And we signed Amare to a max that people were making fun of us for that same day because of his knee surgeries. You are seriously using these to show our advantage?

[Fresh Tendrils]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

We gutted half our roster IN A TRADE for Carmelo. And we signed Amare to a max that people were making fun of us for that same day because of his knee surgeries. You are seriously using these to show our advantage?

Apparently overcoming an inept FO is a clear advantage of a big market team.

Didn't Sacramento literally sign 2 free agents last week in George Hill and Z.Bo? Are we not including them for some reason?

[z Revis]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

We gutted half our roster IN A TRADE for Carmelo. And we signed Amare to a max that people were making fun of us for that same day because of his knee surgeries. You are seriously using these to show our advantage?

Why does it matter what you did/gave up to get him? It's no ones fault but your own that you gutted your team for him when you could've waited and signed him outright in the summer. As for Amare, people can laugh all they want -- he was still a big name at the time and actually had a good 1st season with you guys until injuries derailed him further the following years.


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[DieHardYankee26]

Re: 2017 Offseason Thread

Why does it matter what you did/gave up to get him? It's no ones fault but your own that you gutted your team for him when you could've waited and signed him outright in the summer. As for Amare, people can laugh all they want -- he was still a big name at the time and actually had a good 1st season with you guys until injuries derailed him further the following years.


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It matters because he wasn't even a free agent lol.. This is ridiculous. Contract the small market teams and make it easier for everyone.