2019 Offseason Thread

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  • ojandpizza
    Hall Of Fame
    • Apr 2011
    • 29807

    #301
    Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

    Keep seeing the “Bulls will trade 7th pick for Lonzo”.. what would that trade package look like? I mean obliviously nobody is trading Lonzo for just the 7th pick. Lonzo was a number 2 pick who has shown promise, you don’t give that away for 50/50 bust potential in a relatively weak draft.


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    • Yeah...THAT Guy
      Once in a Lifetime Memory
      • Dec 2006
      • 17294

      #302
      Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

      Originally posted by ojandpizza
      Keep seeing the “Bulls will trade 7th pick for Lonzo”.. what would that trade package look like? I mean obliviously nobody is trading Lonzo for just the 7th pick. Lonzo was a number 2 pick who has shown promise, you don’t give that away for 50/50 bust potential in a relatively weak draft.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      I don't think Lonzo for #7 is off value-wise, or at least not much. I would actually think his value might be less than that at this point.

      Having said that, LeBron generally isn't the biggest fan of playing with rookies anyways, so trading Lonzo for a draft pick would be out of the ordinary for his teams.
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      • King_B_Mack
        All Star
        • Jan 2009
        • 24450

        #303
        Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

        Ryan Saunders has agreed to a multi year deal to become the new head coach of the Minnesota Timberwolves according to Shams

        Meanwhile Woj reporting that Minnesota is hiring Brooklyn’s Gianluca Pascucci as an assistant GM.

        Pack where all these Brooklyn hires coming from all of a sudden?

        EDIT:

        Woj also breaking that Denver Nuggets President of Basketball Operations Tim Connelly is remaining with the franchise instead of joining the Washington Wizards.

        Connelly had been impressed with Leonsis’ vision for franchise, but Denver’s Josh Kroenke made an aggressive case to keep Connelly once Wizards extended an offer over weekend, per sources. Major coup for Denver.

        Washington’s search is expected to turn back toward the finalists, including OKC’s Troy Weaver, Danny Ferry and interim GM Tommy Sheppard.

        Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
        Last edited by King_B_Mack; 05-20-2019, 09:20 AM.

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        • ojandpizza
          Hall Of Fame
          • Apr 2011
          • 29807

          #304
          Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

          Originally posted by Yeah...THAT Guy
          I don't think Lonzo for #7 is off value-wise, or at least not much. I would actually think his value might be less than that at this point.

          Having said that, LeBron generally isn't the biggest fan of playing with rookies anyways, so trading Lonzo for a draft pick would be out of the ordinary for his teams.
          In a draft where the 7th pick is projected to be guys like Coby White, Cam Reddish, Rui Hachimura, I think it's way off value wise. If this was last years draft and that pool was Bamba, Carter, Sexton, maybe then you're a bit closer, but even then I think you have to get back a little before risking a starting caliber PG for what could simply be a bust.

          That's why I was asking what a trade would look like, what else would they be able to get in return. I don't know what the Bulls are even wanting to part ways with, I'm assuming if that deal went through for the Lakers regardless they either have a trade in place that involves number 4&7 or a top level PG wants to sign with them in free agency.

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          • Timmsoski
            Rookie
            • Sep 2018
            • 26

            #305
            Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

            I don't know how much value Lonzo holds right now. He still has a lot to prove offensively obviously, and there is a still a lot of unknown. But like a few have said I dont think the #7 pick is way-off for Lonzo. He hasn't played like a #2 pick so far.
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            • ojandpizza
              Hall Of Fame
              • Apr 2011
              • 29807

              #306
              Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

              Originally posted by Timmsoski
              I don't know how much value Lonzo holds right now. He still has a lot to prove offensively obviously, and there is a still a lot of unknown. But like a few have said I dont think the #7 pick is way-off for Lonzo. He hasn't played like a #2 pick so far.
              Depends what your definition of "offensively" is though. He's not a great shooter in a league that values that more than ever, but he did jump from about 30% form 3 last year to 33% this year. Just one season in. If he makes that jump again over the next even 2-3 years he's a 36% guy from outside, and anything above that would be getting close to that magical 40% mark.

              33% form 3 is the same as shooting 50% from 2, and he's comfortable taking those shots. So the whole idea of him being a Rondo-like guy, Ben Simmons like guy are way off base. Teams don't really just dare him to shoot anymore like those guys. He keeps them honest, doesn't hurt your spacing. Tatum shot 37% from 3 this year, Donovan Mitchell 36%, Luka 33%, it's not like he's massively behind the other young guys who people consider good outside shooters, he just has that narrative hanging over his head.

              The rest of his offense is good. Great passer, great feel for the game, awful at the FT line, still needs to work on his ability to finish. Plays good defense, rebounds well, runs the break well.. I guess it's hard to picture because the numbers just aren't all that pretty, but much like Marcus Smart, Draymond Green, if he's on the floor the team is better. And you can clearly see it watching them play. He's also the only Laker outside of LeBron and JaVale, that had a positive box plus/miuns.

              There is obviously the unknown of just how good he'll be. But it's not an unknown of whether he's an impactful starting PG or not. He's answered at least that much. And in this years draft in particular, 7th pick for Lonzo is a huge gamble. Too much bust potential IMO.

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              • areobee401
                Hall Of Fame
                • Apr 2006
                • 16771

                #307
                Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                I do not think the Lakers would make that deal, nor do I believe they should, but I think you are also overselling the trade value of Lonzo ball as of right now today.
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                • Fresh Tendrils
                  Strike Hard and Fade Away
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 36131

                  #308
                  Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                  From Candace Buckner:
                  Can confirm that Tim Connelly is staying in Denver.

                  May not be so surprising after all -- I spoke to three people yesterday who all claim the #Wizards never gave a contract offer to Connelly on Friday. They talked about the job, yes -- but no years and $$$ were offered.
                  What. The. Literal. ****?!

                  Hey, Pack. You got any room in Brooklyn?



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                  • Master Live 013
                    Hall Of Fame
                    • Oct 2013
                    • 12370

                    #309
                    Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                    No way I'm trading Lonzo for the 7th pick straight up.
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                    • ojandpizza
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Apr 2011
                      • 29807

                      #310
                      Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                      Originally posted by areobee401
                      I do not think the Lakers would make that deal, nor do I believe they should, but I think you are also overselling the trade value of Lonzo ball as of right now today.
                      Not necessarily trying to overvalue Lonzo's trade value but more so under-selling the 7th pick. Watching the likes of Cam Reddish, Coby White, etc play this year and that's just a huge risk for someone like Lonzo, or any starting level player that is only 21 years old..

                      On the reverse of that, Lonzo spent the year sharing time with Rondo, and sharing offensive touches with LeBron, Ingram, Kuz, that's 3 guys scoring at a 20 per 36 clip. That usage drives down what his overall hand on ball usage is going to look like, and as a result hurt his numbers.

                      I had no doubt in my mind that if Lonzo was playing on a team that didn't have 3 guys like that, where he had the ball more and played longer stretches of minutes, he'd be up around that 14-16ppg and 7 assist mark. His projection profile at only 21 years old would be looking a lot more like "he could be Jason Kidd" rather than "he's maybe worth a 7th pick".

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                      • Yeah...THAT Guy
                        Once in a Lifetime Memory
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 17294

                        #311
                        Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                        Originally posted by ojandpizza
                        Depends what your definition of "offensively" is though. He's not a great shooter in a league that values that more than ever, but he did jump from about 30% form 3 last year to 33% this year. Just one season in. If he makes that jump again over the next even 2-3 years he's a 36% guy from outside, and anything above that would be getting close to that magical 40% mark.

                        33% form 3 is the same as shooting 50% from 2, and he's comfortable taking those shots. So the whole idea of him being a Rondo-like guy, Ben Simmons like guy are way off base. Teams don't really just dare him to shoot anymore like those guys. He keeps them honest, doesn't hurt your spacing. Tatum shot 37% from 3 this year, Donovan Mitchell 36%, Luka 33%, it's not like he's massively behind the other young guys who people consider good outside shooters, he just has that narrative hanging over his head.

                        The rest of his offense is good. Great passer, great feel for the game, awful at the FT line, still needs to work on his ability to finish. Plays good defense, rebounds well, runs the break well.. I guess it's hard to picture because the numbers just aren't all that pretty, but much like Marcus Smart, Draymond Green, if he's on the floor the team is better. And you can clearly see it watching them play. He's also the only Laker outside of LeBron and JaVale, that had a positive box plus/miuns.

                        There is obviously the unknown of just how good he'll be. But it's not an unknown of whether he's an impactful starting PG or not. He's answered at least that much. And in this years draft in particular, 7th pick for Lonzo is a huge gamble. Too much bust potential IMO.
                        His TS% through two years is lower than Michael Carter-Williams'. To say Lonzo has struggled to score the ball in the NBA is an understatement.

                        I wouldn't say he's a worthless bust or anything; I still like him as a prospect. But in a world where a draft pick's value depreciates the moment a player is selected with it, I wouldn't be surprised if his value around the league is roughly the 7th pick in this year's draft or less.

                        If it were me, I'd be trying to convince LeBron that Lonzo is worth more on the team than he is in trade talks (unless he's part of a package to bring in another star). I still think Lonzo can theoretically be a good fit with him.
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                        • King_B_Mack
                          All Star
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 24450

                          #312
                          Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                          There's also the injury issue with Ball. He's played in 52 and 47 games so far in his career. That's not something that inspires me to want to give up a lot to get him if he's gonna be injured when I need him more often than not

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                          • ehh
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Mar 2003
                            • 28962

                            #313
                            Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                            It's a no-go from both perspectives IMO. If I'm LAL, there's no way I'm trading him for just #7. Too early to give up on him. If I'm Chicago, I'm not giving up #7 for him, his ceiling isn't high enough for me.
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                            • ojandpizza
                              Hall Of Fame
                              • Apr 2011
                              • 29807

                              #314
                              Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                              Originally posted by Yeah...THAT Guy
                              His TS% through two years is lower than Michael Carter-Williams'. To say Lonzo has struggled to score the ball in the NBA is an understatement.

                              I wouldn't say he's a worthless bust or anything; I still like him as a prospect. But in a world where a draft pick's value depreciates the moment a player is selected with it, I wouldn't be surprised if his value around the league is roughly the 7th pick in this year's draft or less.

                              If it were me, I'd be trying to convince LeBron that Lonzo is worth more on the team than he is in trade talks (unless he's part of a package to bring in another star). I still think Lonzo can theoretically be a good fit with him.
                              His TS% is also a tad higher than Jason Kidd's this past season compared to Kidd's first couple of years. And that's with Lonzo being absolutely awful at the FT line (the only reason his TS% isn't above 50).

                              I think my thought on it is more so, there seems to be a stigma that in today's league your point guard has to be able to shoot really well. Just like half the basketball world basically ignoring everything Ben Simmons does well. But lot's of teams play guys who don't shoot all that well. Draymond and Iggy for example, Giannis, Ben.. I guess my thought is, in a era where players 1-5 are outside shooting 3's why does it matter if it's your point guard or your power forward who's not hitting them at an elite rate? Lonzo can do his job and excel at everything else and easily be a point guard version of Draymond Green on a good team that already has scoring in other spots.

                              I realize I'm higher on him than most, but on a good team that doesn't necessarily need him to be trying to play outside his range of skills I would legitimately rather have him than Ingram, Kuzma, or even what we saw from Tatum this season.. Can you ship him off to a bad team and him make them better, probably not but neither is Draymond. But he's going to make good teams better teams, his play takes nothing away from your "stars" and the other 4 guys on the court are better for it.

                              If Chicago were to stay put and come back with LaVine, Porter, Lauri, I actually think Lonzo is a great fit for that group. They have their scoring, let him do what he does best and make everything easier for those 3. I'm just not sold on the Lakers trading him for a 7th pick in this draft... Because if they keep him he's going to fit with whatever they bring in, where Kuz, BI you can't really say the same.

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                              • jeremym480
                                Speak it into existence
                                • Oct 2008
                                • 18198

                                #315
                                Re: 2019 Offseason Thread

                                Originally posted by Yeah...THAT Guy
                                I don't think Lonzo for #7 is off value-wise, or at least not much. I would actually think his value might be less than that at this point.

                                Having said that, LeBron generally isn't the biggest fan of playing with rookies anyways, so trading Lonzo for a draft pick would be out of the ordinary for his teams.

                                I agree, Lebron doesn't want to play with rookies. The only way that I think the Lakers trade Ball for #7 is if they plan on shipping that pick to NOLA in a package for AD. Maybe even another team could come into play, as well. If 4 & 7 are included in deal for AD, then it would be weird for the Pelicans to have three top 7 picks on their team.


                                Also, I forgot to mention that last season Lonzo's camp said that he didn't want to play in NOLA so Lonzo's probably not going to be in any package where he goes to NOLA. It would make sense to get something for him that they can add in his place.
                                Last edited by jeremym480; 05-20-2019, 05:00 PM.
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