UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

[Sirsunny2]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

I have one more question for the dev or gamechanger. What happens if i go for a hard combo, lets say: jab , straight, hook. Is it possible to slip right after you have input the striking commands. So that its starts the combo with a normal jab but then you move or slip for the second strike .
So basically, is it possible to do signature lunges, moves, slips while the fighter is pulling of his hard combo?

[Not_Entertained]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

They are Mortal Kombat combos in the sense that the game now requires you to memorize a set list of combos with each fighter to utilize the maximum efficiency with that fighter. Rather than using real fight knowledge, and logic to gain an advantage, whoever has the more/better combos memorized has the advantage.



Of course fighters drill specific combinations. But those combinations they are drilling are always switching up. They arent locked into some set number of combinations. Realistic striking should be rewarded with realistic mechanics. I feel if the mechanics represent real logic, then you don't need to give fighters set combos, players will use real combos, because those are really what actually work best.

In terms of Ai, I love like the idea of giving them combos and movement to emulate their real life counter part, but the player should be the one in control, and the mechanics should dictate whether unrealistic striking is worth throwing.

My thoughts exactly.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

@Haz

I had similar fears as you about the pre-set combos...very similar. When it was revealed to me conceptually I threw a fit and allowed it to basically completely ruin my mojo for the game. It brought up memories of the Playstation 2 era Mortal Kombat games where everything felt robotic and funky and you couldn't just do what you wanted and had to memorize several different combinations to have a hope in hell of winning.

After playing, my fears were allayed. You can throw almost every basic 2 hit combo with almost every fighter. Single strikes all come out without issue. There are a large amount of strikes that "soft combo." Some stuff didn't naturally soft combo at the event so I made a point to the devs about that and asked them to allow certain missing chains to work for everyone.

But what you need to keep in mind is that these generic soft combos are still in. The fighter specific "hard combos" leverage fighter styles and real-life sequences in targeted ways that add to the feeling of true fighter differentiation. Even if Nick Diaz can throw a wheel kick, you don't want him to be able to combo it fluidly from punches like Thompson can. That should be a Thompson-specific "feature." Some of the lengthier punch combos would make sense to give to someone like Eddie Alvarez but wouldn't make a lot of sense to give to Gunnar Nelson.

In practice, the combo system ends up feeling like an addition to the game rather than a restrictive subtraction. You're getting added differences between fighters, added nuance, a higher skill ceiling, and the essential soft combos that you need for utility are all there (and if they aren't, then say something during the beta).

To be clear, I fully agree that basic 2-3 hit combos should chain for pretty much everyone, especially sequences that you need to deal with certain common strategies.

[Serengeti1]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

They are Mortal Kombat combos in the sense that the game now requires you to memorize a set list of combos with each fighter to utilize the maximum efficiency with that fighter. Rather than using real fight knowledge, and logic to gain an advantage, whoever has the more/better combos memorized has the advantage.

We don't know if it will work that way yet. If the hard combos end up being the only thing people throw... That will obviously become an issue. But if you're able to counter someone who is abusing them with creative combos... I don't see the issue. The combos fighters use most often in real life being the most effective is a good design choice though. I don't see why you'd disagree with that. Again though... If the hard combos are the only thing being thrown to win fights.... That's where it gets corny. You want them to be effective but there needs to be a line basically.

[Sirsunny2]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

Not that it is so important because it was already good but did the visuals improved somewhat compared to ufc 2. Does it have a different feel than ufc 2 when you played it?

[ZombieRommel]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

Not that it is so important because it was already good but did the visuals improved somewhat compared to ufc 2. Does it have a different feel than ufc 2 when you played it?

Yes, but I can't get into specifics. You'll see soon.

[Not_Entertained]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

@Haz

I had similar fears as you about the pre-set combos...very similar. When it was revealed to me conceptually I threw a fit and allowed it to basically completely ruin my mojo for the game. It brought up memories of the Playstation 2 era Mortal Kombat games where everything felt robotic and funky and you couldn't just do what you wanted and had to memorize several different combinations to have a hope in hell of winning.

After playing, my fears were allayed. You can throw almost every basic 2 hit combo with almost every fighter. Single strikes all come out without issue. There are a large amount of strikes that "soft combo." Some stuff didn't naturally soft combo at the event so I made a point to the devs about that and asked them to allow certain missing chains to work for everyone.

But what you need to keep in mind is that these generic soft combos are still in. The fighter specific "hard combos" leverage fighter styles and real-life sequences in targeted ways that add to the feeling of true fighter differentiation. Even if Nick Diaz can throw a wheel kick, you don't want him to be able to combo it fluidly from punches like Thompson can. That should be a Thompson-specific "feature." Some of the lengthier punch combos would make sense to give to someone like Eddie Alvarez but wouldn't make a lot of sense to give to Gunnar Nelson.



In practice, the combo system ends up feeling like an addition to the game rather than a restrictive subtraction. You're getting added differences between fighters, added nuance, a higher skill ceiling, and the essential soft combos that you need for utility are all there (and if they aren't, then say something during the beta).

To be clear, I fully agree that basic 2-3 hit combos should chain for pretty much everyone, especially sequences that you need to deal with certain common strategies.

Why not just make certain moves or combos unavailable for certain fighters that wouldn't have them in real life? Let's take that Nick Diaz example. If he has a wheel kick, then yes have it as a move for him. But if he can't combo into wheel kicks, then don't allow it. Like if you try throwing a one two wheel kick combo, only the one two would be executed and so he wouldn't perform the wheel kick in this case. But if he throws the wheel kick on its own, then he does perform it.

[GameplayDevUFC]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

Any idea if the beta will have open feedback yet, or will there be a closed forum again?

I'm not 100% sure, but I'm pretty sure it will be open because my understanding is streaming will be allowed this time.

They might set up a feedback forum for the beta just to keep it all in one place, but I don't think it will be locked.

[Sirsunny2]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

We don't know if it will work that way yet. If the hard combos end up being the only thing people throw... That will obviously become an issue. But if you're able to counter someone who is abusing them with creative combos... I don't see the issue. The combos fighters use most often in real life being the most effective is a good design choice though. I don't see why you'd disagree with that. Again though... If the hard combos are the only thing being thrown to win fights.... That's where it gets corny. You want them to be effective but there needs to be a line basically.

You can always use the jab or leg kick or something, the hard combos will not destroy everthing in its way. I think some people think of it way too complicated. A jab hook can also be a hard combo but it is something that you would normally throw also in ufc2 for example, like many of these hard combos i think, eventually people will throw it without thinking because it is simply the most realistic and right way to fight. It is just a perfect idea to discourage people that threw the most ridiculous kick over and over. The fights will also be way more fluid i think, since these hard combos are probably mo capped. I think it will look and play beautiful.. You can move slip jab etc. while they are doing these combos. It is not like they will force a 5 move combo through your defense and suddenly your character goes wobbly and the screens says : FINISH HIM!

[ZombieRommel]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

Why not just make certain moves or combos unavailable for certain fighters that wouldn't have them in real life? Let's take that Nick Diaz example. If he has a wheel kick, then yes have it as a move for him. But if he can't combo into wheel kicks, then don't allow it. Like if you try throwing a one two wheel kick combo, only the one two would be executed and so he wouldn't perform the wheel kick in this case. But if he throws the wheel kick on its own, then he does perform it.

In the Nick Diaz example above, his wheel kick would NOT have fighter-specific "hard combo" frames. So it would come out so slow after his 1-2 that you would be inviting death via vulnerability counter if you threw it.

You can attempt to combo anything. Whether or not it queues up with good frames is a question of whether or not it's a combo at all. If it doesn't combo at all, you get super awful frames. If it soft combos you get decent and usable frames. If it hard combos you get great frames. In the Diaz example, it probably would not even soft combo, so it would just be a strike with a big-@ss startup execution queued up, so it would be quite bad for him to use. You don't need to kill the action queue if the move has such awful frames that you basically invite people to kill you if you even try it.

[Solid_Altair]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

The unrealistic combos were a direct result of people abusing the Combo Multiplier mechanic. The extreme emphasis you guys put on combos, and all the boosts combos get, warps the way people play to exploit the system. This causes people to throw extremely weird combinations in an effort to milk the absolute most efficiency out of the Combo Multiplier boost mechanic.

By adding vulnerability windows, and removing the Combo Multiplier, that alone de-incentivises throwing awkward combinations, because there will be no reason to throw awkward combinations anymore, in fact it would only open you up to vulnerability windows.

If realistic striking was rewarded by realistic mechanics, people would throw realistic strikes. In UFC 2, your actually actively punished for trying to play realistically, so obviously, most people aren't going to bother trying to play in a realistic manner; the mechanics simply just don't allow, or reward it.

I really don't understand the idea of wanting to add pre-set, pre-determined, pre-scripted combos hard locked onto fighters. That seems like such an antiquated mechanic.

I feel this whole idea of locking in hard combos takes away from the feel of MMA, and actual hand to hand combat, and makes it feel like an arcade fighter, like Tekken, Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, etc. I don't know about you guys, but I don't play fighting games at all. I'm a sports, and MMA fan, not a fighting game fan.

I'm extremely concerned over this, but it is what it is I guess. I can't make an actual opinion till I get my hands on it myself. But man, this could be devestating.


I guess my last point, is... If you guys are going to be hard locking combos onto fighters, you better have watched a million hours of film. The stats and moves were an absolute mess last game. How are we supposed to expect you to get it right when you have to assign moves, AND combos this time?

I just really hope this isn't as dramatic as im making it out to be. I just want this game to feel good.

Nope. Even without the combo multiplier, the crazy combos would end up being too good. Keep in mind that the stand up is radically different, now. The frames are tuned, this time. Even with the limitted stopping power of body punches, they can prevent you from firing back between eating them, because the (proper looking) combos are very fast.

Crazy mix up combos with lots of body punches would not be impossible to counter, but would almost surely become a prefered tactic, if they were allowed.

And the basic combos that everybody has aren't so limitting. I suppose most strikers will have some extra combos from a couple of disciplines. So the end result looks and plays right.
___________

As to the stun meter... I can understand your concern about it seeming like the combo multiplier. If the effect of the stun meter for making combos result in health events was big, then it would indeed feel a bit similar to the combo multiplier. But I assure you that's not the case.

Besides the qualitative difference - that the combo multiplier adds actual damage, while the stun meter doesn't - the effect of the stun meter for rocks is way smaller, when compared to the combo multiplier. If MartialMind didn't complain about this, I suppose you trust it's fine.

Think about this effect as something allow the JJ style of rocking people with volume. And it's only a little help. It also helps making the whole system even more organic. And hitting people consecutively is actually not easy.

[Serengeti1]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

I'll have you know... Nick is a kicking expert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2m5FjVCrxs

209 STOCKTON WHAT

[Not_Entertained]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

In the Nick Diaz example above, his wheel kick would NOT have fighter-specific "hard combo" frames. So it would come out so slow after his 1-2 that you would be inviting death via vulnerability counter if you threw it.

You can attempt to combo anything. Whether or not it queues up with good frames is a question of whether or not it's a combo at all. If it doesn't combo at all, you get super awful frames. If it soft combos you get decent and usable frames. If it hard combos you get great frames. In the Diaz example, it probably would not even soft combo, so it would just be a strike with a big-@ss startup execution queued up, so it would be quite bad for him to use. You don't need to kill the action queue if the move has such awful frames that you basically invite people to kill you if you even try it.

Ah, that actually sound great! Very nice.

[Not_Entertained]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

I'll have you know... Nick is a kicking expert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2m5FjVCrxs

209 STOCKTON WHAT

He's got good kicks!

[MalformedDC2009]

Re: UFC 3 - RPM TECH STRIKING DEEP DIVE

Can a game changer tell me if range reqs for max damage are just 1 for tall fighters and 1 for short fighters?

Or are there more than 2 range reqs for max damage, based on how short / tall?



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