Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

We should be able to impose our style, in ea ufc, aggressive player can dictate the pace for at least 3 rounds., the combos input extra speed, the stamina tolerance on blocked strikes specially jab make the defensive/outside player have to run or brawl, if you run u have to sway/lunge for your life and block and pick a feel shots just to survive, if u brawl, well, u are doing their game...

Ps. I know guys can use knees, but for me, when u do it, u are diving on deeeep black side of the force, as knees and spinning elbows are the cheesiest strikes in the game

The aggressor definitely controls the pace, but he puts himself at a disadvantage in doing so. It's a trade off.

Zombie and I have been playing quite a bit recently having some epic fights where he is fighting tall and on the outside with Cowboy, and I try to pressure and get inside with RDA.

They turn out to be highly competitive fights, which indicates a balance between the two styles.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Just looked back at a few posts I had in that thread. I still support those points. Does anyone want a game where Maia will be on your back for 5 minutes at a time? Lewis Ngannou esque matches? Houston Alexander vs Kimbo type matches?

Like I said, I can understand frustration within a debate, but I don't think anything said is drastic enough to assume any GCers want a Mortal Kombat UFC game.

Well the Maia thing already happens, if the fight stays on grappling players just hold, and fake.

Those fights that u put here, well... the fighters are the one that choose to fight like that, if you wanna fight/play in a style you have to impose, our current game, a outside player can’t impose an inside fighter to play outide...

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

The aggressor definitely controls the pace, but he puts himself at a disadvantage in doing so. It's a trade off.

Zombie and I have been playing quite a bit recently having some epic fights where he is fighting tall and on the outside with Cowboy, and I try to pressure and get inside with RDA.

They turn out to be highly competitive fights, which indicates a balance between the two styles.

I don’t think there’s balance, the tall guy have to adapt to the agressor style, force to engage, and I believe he threw a feel knees to keep you outside

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well the Maia thing already happens, if the fight stays on grappling players just hold, and fake.

Those fights that u put here, well... the fighters are the one that choose to fight like that, if you wanna fight/play in a style you have to impose, our current game, a outside player can’t impose an inside fighter to play outide...

I have never had someone keep my back for an entire round in UFC3 like Maia does to people in fights.

As for the 2nd part,
Isnt that pretty true to life though? Moving forwards is always easier than moving backwards or to the side. I feel like I could stay in close proximity with someone who isnt doing anything but trying to move away from me in a cage.

Its only once they start hitting me that I would CHOOSE to back off.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Just looked back at a few posts I had in that thread. I still support those points. Does anyone want a game where Maia will be on your back for 5 minutes at a time? Lewis Ngannou esque matches? Houston Alexander vs Kimbo type matches?

Like I said, I can understand frustration within a debate, but I don't think anything said is drastic enough to assume any GCers want a Mortal Kombat UFC game.

*raises hand* I’d love to see the good and bad of the sport. I know it not a realistic goal for the base game but sliders to make it happen would be cool

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I'd just like to remind you that Ngannou vs. Lewis was a freak occurence. Lewis fought with a debilitating back injury, whereas Ngannou's fight with Stipe had severe psychological effects on his next performance, which he has since overcome. These are two very good reasons why that fight went the way it did and I'm one of the few people that doesn't "hate" it because it's clear to me why it turned out bad. These two guys are nothing like their respective performances on that night.

As for the heavyweight fights, yeah, it should be blink and you'll miss it, first-punch-to-land-likely-ends-it-affair, where if that doesn't happen people are terribly gassed. Obviously that's a sweeping generalisation but this is the nature of the weight class.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I have never had someone keep my back for an entire round in UFC3 like Maia does to people in fights.

As for the 2nd part,
Isnt that pretty true to life though? Moving forwards is always easier than moving backwards or to the side. I feel like I could stay in close proximity with someone who isnt doing anything but trying to move away from me in a cage.

Its only once they start hitting me that I would CHOOSE to back off.

Oh, in the back you mean backpack ... I thought it was someone don’t letting you do anything on the grappling.

As for the second part, Well when we are on a game, I’m no longer bmlimo , I’m Lyoto A fighter that move backwards as fast as forward, and can cut angles to you never find me, Lyoto also has a low rate of strikes, but usually he hit the opponent and the opponent don’t hit him, in this game we can’t simulate Lyoto because, a forward strike cover to much distance, single strikes power and stopping power aren’t on the right spot yet, lack of lateral movement, and you can fight in absolute high pace for 3 rounds making an outside fighter live a hell on earth.

Ps. You point the solutions in your changes post... I really appreciate all the things you pointed there...

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

This I disagree with and I'll explain why from a realism perspective and a balance perspective.



Nobody gasses more from hitting the arms than hitting the face. Hitting an object to keep you from whiffing, whether it be the head, body or the arms has the same end result.


From a balance perspective. Blocking is the most basic input and form of defense possible. It's very strong and requires zero risk and minimal effort on reads. In short, forcing inaccuracy by blocking is a pretty easy task.

Yes but at the same time they should not be allowed to be able to pull off max Holloway output with Conor McGregor or Jose Aldo. I’m all for realistic pressure and intelligent pressure. I just am not for the overpowered lack of stamina tax that and footwork is horrible. If they can just land 150 shots on your block in one round and not be gassed in a 3 round fight that is unrealistic. The tax shouldn’t be as big as a whiff but it should be bigger than what it is now.

[Haz____]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Here's the thing. You can't force someone to fight your fight. And you can't force someone to engange. You see it quite often, that if a fighter doesn't want to engage, it can be incredibly hard for the attacker to get anything off if he isn't using incredibly smart footwork.

A great example is a guy like David Teymur. He fights extremely passively, constantly on his back foot. You can see the frustration in all of his opponents because he won't stand and bang with them. He often gets yelled at by the ref even for not engaging enough.

The thing is, irl, It's easier to avoid contact than it is to create contact. When we spar at my gym, granted it's just an open mat, it's very easy to just back up and disengage...

Again this comes back to moving while striking. Moving while striking is actually insanely hard to do, and you really have to drill specific sequences to retain power and balance in your strikes while moving. It's incredibly technical and difficult to do. In 90% of real life situations youre trying to maneuver into position to plant and throw. Not throwing while moving.


An excellent real life example of this, is the Nate Quarry - Kalib Starnes fight.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FTK7lV0U764" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is a pretty infamous fight. Starnes breaks his foot early and instead of getting beat up, he decides to just disengage all fight and avoid getting knocked out.

Even with a broken foot he was easily able to avoid almost all of Quarry's offense.

You can't force someone to fight your fight.

If a fighter or player doesn't want to engage, you can't expect the game to make them brawl you. You need to either use smarter footwork to cut him off, or use feints and distance manipulation to draw him out, etc.

[1212headkick]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Here's the thing. You can't force someone to fight your fight. And you can't force someone to engange. You see it quite often, that if a fighter doesn't want to engage, it can be incredibly hard for the attacker to get anything off if he isn't using incredibly smart footwork.

A great example is a guy like David Teymur. He fights extremely passively, constantly on his back foot. You can see the frustration in all of his opponents because he won't stand and bang with them. He often gets yelled at by the ref even for not engaging enough.

The thing is, irl, It's easier to avoid contact than it is to create contact. When we spar at my gym, granted it's just an open mat, it's very easy to just back up and disengage...

Again this comes back to moving while striking. Moving while striking is actually insanely hard to do, and you really have to drill specific sequences to retain power and balance in your strikes while moving. It's incredibly technical and difficult to do. In 90% of real life situations youre trying to maneuver into position to plant and throw. Not throwing while moving.


An excellent real life example of this, is the Nate Quarry - Kalib Starnes fight.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FTK7lV0U764" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is a pretty infamous fight. Starnes breaks his foot early and instead of getting beat up, he decides to just disengage all fight and avoid getting knocked out.

Even with a broken foot he was easily able to avoid almost all of Quarry's offense.

You can't force someone to fight your fight.

If a fighter or player doesn't want to engange, you can't expect the game to make them brawl you. You need to either use smarter footwork to cut him off, or use feints and distance manipulation to draw him out, etc.

Feints suck at drawing reactions out of people in this game unless they’re a cheating bum using haptic

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

@ZombieRommel

Thanks for posting your ideas again! I think all of them make sense and wouldn't mind them being implemented. I'm just not sure about the last one, how it would actually play out. On that note, I feel checking leg kicks from certain fighters shouldn't be a sustainable option whatsoever (Barboza, Gaethje, I'd include Aldo but he doesn't kick anymore) but obviously other things would probably have to change for that to happen. Just a thought.

Anyway, after your suggestion to facilitate kick-catching depending on kick levels, the next step is implementing what Martial Mind suggested - namely: ugly, okay and great animations. This is the natural progression of that idea of yours and it's an absolute must.

I fully agree that we need a full progression of technique-based animations. I'm not sure it will happen but I would love it to.

Martial at one point had suggested that the kick check input needs to be its own input. We'll see what happens. I do think leg kicks need a small buff of some sort. But right now the leg kicks are kind of bugged in the sense that the return of the kick grants a lot of GA even on clean hit. So they're dangerous to throw against grapplers even if you land them. Fixing that issue should help a lot, but I also think it's just kind of lame that someone can circle out and then the game auto-freezes them to help them check the kick.

Reminds me of how the game used to "assist" head movement by freezing the person in place until the strike had fully played out.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I fully agree that we need a full progression of technique-based animations. I'm not sure it will happen but I would love it to.

Martial at one point had suggested that the kick check input needs to be its own input. We'll see what happens. I do think leg kicks need a small buff of some sort. But right now the leg kicks are kind of bugged in the sense that the return of the kick grants a lot of GA even on clean hit. So they're dangerous to throw against grapplers even if you land them. Fixing that issue should help a lot, but I also think it's just kind of lame that someone can circle out and then the game auto-freezes them to help them check the kick.

Reminds me of how the game used to "assist" head movement by freezing the person in place until the strike had fully played out.

On that note, right now leg kicks are to a great extent pointless - you can just switch stances after your opponent worked his *** off to chop down one leg and it's suddenly all fine. A badly damaged leg, just one leg, should lead to you moving around much more slowly ans it should take away power from you. In fact, I'm all for temporary and permanent stat drops during a fight. I've made some suggestions on leg kicks and TKOs, I can post links to them if you're interested.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I fully agree that we need a full progression of technique-based animations. I'm not sure it will happen but I would love it to.

Martial at one point had suggested that the kick check input needs to be its own input. We'll see what happens. I do think leg kicks need a small buff of some sort. But right now the leg kicks are kind of bugged in the sense that the return of the kick grants a lot of GA even on clean hit. So they're dangerous to throw against grapplers even if you land them. Fixing that issue should help a lot, but I also think it's just kind of lame that someone can circle out and then the game auto-freezes them to help them check the kick.

Reminds me of how the game used to "assist" head movement by freezing the person in place until the strike had fully played out.

Well kicks should offer GA to the opponent whether or not you land. It’s supposed to simulate the fact that you’re off balance.

I agree with the person above that it needs to have more of an impact on stats when you damage the leg. Lunges and circling speed should be all be slower.

I also hope switch stance rating will have a greater impact

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

@ZombieRommel

Well, here they are anyway:

I think even one badly damaged leg should result in power reduction and significantly slower movement. Even the top players say that leg kicks not great for 3 round fights because you can't break both legs. I think there should be consequences if even one of your legs gets chopped up, with the switch stance being merely a way to avoid getting your leg damaged further, rather than to essentially activate another health bar for yourself along with that. You should feel much slower, and with less power behind your strikes, all depending on how badly the leg is hurt. I think the movement speed should start togradually decrease (with each kick) once the health of one leg gets to about 70-75% , whereas power should start dropping when about 50% of the leg's health is gone. If both legs reach these sorts of numbers, this should be reflected and the consequences will be, say, twice as severe, since both legs will be badly damaged.

The TKO/Standing TKO concept:
If one fighter gets a certain numbers of rocks or drops in quick succession (1 accelerated minute or 1 accelerated minute and something), there should be an audible warning from the referee that he'll stop the fight after 1 or 2 more clean shots.

The rocks, just like the KDs right now, should have different states, at least 3:

1.Mild
2.Moderate
3.Severe

Each of these should come with certain side effects - temporary stat drops which vary in length depending on the severity and the number of health events entered, perhaps loss of equilibrium, I am sure there are plenty of fun things that can be done here. Despite there being different kinds of KDs right now, they are still very shallow and need to come with temporary stat nerfs (just like I described with the stuns) as well. If you are very badly dropped your bottom game should suffer for it, etc, at least temporarily, for example.

When does the warning trigger?

3 Moderate Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
2 Severe Stuns in quick succession should trigger it.
1 Mild and 2 Moderate could trigger it, etc, etc.

2 Moderate KDs should trigger it.
1 Severe KD shouldn't result in a TKO warning like these ones, but it should really be severe, you'll be dizzy and it should be really likely for the guy to finish you. These can be fleshed out in the development process, but that's the general idea.

What should the defender do when these are triggered?

It's up to them, but they're in trouble. Do I wanna panic shoot, do I want to throw a hail mary strike, do I want to clinch, do I want to block? You have to make a decision and you have to make it fast and none of them will be a guaranteed escape, as you're hurt and your stats have suffered. It's basic instinct time, and you're in danger big time. You are likely to lose and saving yourself would be a heroic feat, rather than an automatic deus-ex-machina salvation times infinity.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well kicks should offer GA to the opponent whether or not you land. It’s supposed to simulate the fact that you’re off balance.

I agree with the person above that it needs to have more of an impact on stats when you damage the leg. Lunges and circling speed should be all be slower.

I also hope switch stance rating will have a greater impact

I should clarify more.

So right now there are several factors that affect GA on the feet and can help lead to a takedown. There are also "perfect" takedowns, or timed takedowns which result in special animations if the person shooting times the TD just right during a kick. I'm totally fine with these timed shots leading to a takedown.

I'm also fine with checked leg kicks leading to significant GA (so the person who checked the kick can dive on the leg in recovery.

However, right now, here's what happens:

• Recovery frames on leg kicks lead to significant GA for the opponent, REGARDLESS of whether the hit was checked, whiffed, or landed clean
  
• During the recovery of the leg kick, takedown pre-denies do NOT work
  
• Reaction denials are technically possible but extremely hard due to the large GA gain, and any hint of latency screws up timing further.

What does this mean in the actual meta of the game?

Let's take a Khabib vs anyone matchup (could be Conor, Ferg, or anyone), but let's say it's Barboza, since leg kicks are one of Barboza's biggest weapons.

Let's say the Khabib player understands how the GA works on clean hit right now.

• Khabib player can start circling a lot to bait out kicks to control his lateral movement.
  
• Khabib player suddenly stops moving and LETS HIMSELF get hit in the legs.
  
• Khabib player shoots a POWER DOUBLE into side control.
  
• Khabib player now gets a HUGE GA advantage during the kick's recovery despite having eaten a clean, perfectly place leg kick.
  
• Barboza player CANNOT pre-deny. He has a tiny window to deny the shot and must WAIT for the Khabib player to actually make contact on his legs. Any kind of lag can screw with this window further.

So this in effect PUNISHES the Barboza player for landing CLEAN leg kicks. He is doing everything correctly and still getting punished with power doubles into side control that are an absolute bitch to deny against certain characters (IE Khabib). It's not like the Khabib player is waiting for his perfect moment to shoot in DURING the kicking frames of the kick to get the special takedown. I'm talking about guys who let themselves get hit just to exploit the high GA on recovery.

In high level matches against grapplers, this effectively means that leg kicks are too risky to ever even attempt to throw, because even if you're doing everything right and landing clean un-checked kicks in perfect range, you're still putting yourself at huge risk of being put into SIDE CONTROL (!) without the other guy even having to attempt the timed undeniable takedowns.