Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

On that note, right now leg kicks are to a great extent pointless - you can just switch stances after your opponent worked his *** off to chop down one leg and it's suddenly all fine. A badly damaged leg, just one leg, should lead to you moving around much more slowly ans it should take away power from you. In fact, I'm all for temporary and permanent stat drops during a fight. I've made some suggestions on leg kicks and TKOs, I can post links to them if you're interested.

So the way it works now, diminished leg health (on either leg) does strip power away from strikes (punches & kicks) and also makes takedowns harder to land and harder to defend. This property stays whether the guy changes his stance or not. It's just not communicated well.

The movement speed penalty - yeah there really isn't much of one at the moment. You get speed penalties during the leg health events, but after you recover you're pretty much back at top speed. I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it feels unrealistic. On the other hand, allowing leg kicks to hinder movement speed permanently could lead to a situation where it's a battle to see who can screw up whose leg first and then run away for the rest of the fight with the other guy never being able to catch him.

I think something like this might be okay if timed lunges could still allow an aggressor to cut off the cage despite a hindered walk speed. But the approach needs to be holistic.

[Kingslayer04]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

So the way it works now, diminished leg health (on either leg) does strip power away from strikes (punches & kicks) and also makes takedowns harder to land and harder to defend. This property stays whether the guy changes his stance or not. It's just not communicated well.

The movement speed penalty - yeah there really isn't much of one at the moment. You get speed penalties during the leg health events, but after you recover you're pretty much back at top speed. I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it feels unrealistic. On the other hand, allowing leg kicks to hinder movement speed permanently could lead to a situation where it's a battle to see who can screw up whose leg first and then run away for the rest of the fight with the other guy never being able to catch him.

I think something like this might be okay if timed lunges could still allow an aggressor to cut off the cage despite a hindered walk speed. But the approach needs to be holistic.

Well...this is why I want really prominent strengths and weaknesses. Most people aren't amazing leg kickers, so the defender should have enough time to adjust to their kicks before he is really hurt. Getting kicked by a Barboza or Gaethje should **** you up though, so that's where you look to get out of kicking range or in their face, or look to tie them up, or else.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Well...this is why I want really prominent strengths and weaknesses. Most people aren't amazing leg kickers, so the defender should have enough time to adjust to their kicks before he is really hurt. Getting kicked by a Barboza or Gaethje should **** you up though, so that's where you look to get out of kicking range or in their face, or look to tie them up, or else.

I can definitely see where you're going and I don't disagree. I just think we have to be cautious because this could easily become a case of "be careful what you wish for" where trolling the other player by getting a health event that slows him down X percent enables you to just run away and taunt while the other guy does his best to catch up and land something and never can. This sort of thing might be alright if the leg health regen'd a bit more between rounds (icing the leg) but right now leg health is the most unforgiving health meter when it comes to regen between rounds. At one point GPD had all leg damage PERMANENT. I think he eventually backpedaled on that, but you still don't get much regen at all.

About the leg kick TKO, I like your idea and think it might be feasible. Right now we get into too many situations where the other guy's leg health is toast. He gets up, you kick it, he goes down again, and this can happen like 10 times without his leg ever actually going to 0 health. It'll just go to like 1-3% over and over. So yeah, I think that's a good idea.

The GC'ers did ask for standing TKO events in general (think Dillashaw vs Barao and JJ vs Cookie Monster) for UFC2, but the devs didn't have the time/budget to do it.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Let’s we’ll about legkicks, , I believe is all about distances a good leg kick in the right range will take the grapplers base, the grappler would make a bad takedown attempt because he would be off balance and the agressor would be in a safe distance to easilly sprawl, Aldo is a master in doing it, prime barão, prime Thiago Alves...all of them were exceptional leg kickers against grapplers

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I can definitely see where you're going and I don't disagree. I just think we have to be cautious because this could easily become a case of "be careful what you wish for" where trolling the other player by getting a health event that slows him down X percent enables you to just run away and taunt while the other guy does his best to catch up and land something and never can. This sort of thing might be alright if the leg health regen'd a bit more between rounds (icing the leg) but right now leg health is the most unforgiving health meter when it comes to regen between rounds. At one point GPD had all leg damage PERMANENT. I think he eventually backpedaled on that, but you still don't get much regen at all.

About the leg kick TKO, I like your idea and think it might be feasible. Right now we get into too many situations where the other guy's leg health is toast. He gets up, you kick it, he goes down again, and this can happen like 10 times without his leg ever actually going to 0 health. It'll just go to like 1-3% over and over. So yeah, I think that's a good idea.

The GC'ers did ask for standing TKO events in general (think Dillashaw vs Barao and JJ vs Cookie Monster) for UFC2, but the devs didn't have the time/budget to do it.

Leg damage should be more about movement(strike ranges, footwork) and less about tko, leg tko is very hard to see but fighters walking like zombies with their leg hurt is very commom

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I should clarify more.

So right now there are several factors that affect GA on the feet and can help lead to a takedown. There are also "perfect" takedowns, or timed takedowns which result in special animations if the person shooting times the TD just right during a kick. I'm totally fine with these timed shots leading to a takedown.

I'm also fine with checked leg kicks leading to significant GA (so the person who checked the kick can dive on the leg in recovery.

However, right now, here's what happens:

• Recovery frames on leg kicks lead to significant GA for the opponent, REGARDLESS of whether the hit was checked, whiffed, or landed clean
  
• During the recovery of the leg kick, takedown pre-denies do NOT work
  
• Reaction denials are technically possible but extremely hard due to the large GA gain, and any hint of latency screws up timing further.

What does this mean in the actual meta of the game?

Let's take a Khabib vs anyone matchup (could be Conor, Ferg, or anyone), but let's say it's Barboza, since leg kicks are one of Barboza's biggest weapons.

Let's say the Khabib player understands how the GA works on clean hit right now.

• Khabib player can start circling a lot to bait out kicks to control his lateral movement.
  
• Khabib player suddenly stops moving and LETS HIMSELF get hit in the legs.
  
• Khabib player shoots a POWER DOUBLE into side control.
  
• Khabib player now gets a HUGE GA advantage during the kick's recovery despite having eaten a clean, perfectly place leg kick.
  
• Barboza player CANNOT pre-deny. He has a tiny window to deny the shot and must WAIT for the Khabib player to actually make contact on his legs. Any kind of lag can screw with this window further.

So this in effect PUNISHES the Barboza player for landing CLEAN leg kicks. He is doing everything correctly and still getting punished with power doubles into side control that are an absolute bitch to deny against certain characters (IE Khabib). It's not like the Khabib player is waiting for his perfect moment to shoot in DURING the kicking frames of the kick to get the special takedown. I'm talking about guys who let themselves get hit just to exploit the high GA on recovery.

In high level matches against grapplers, this effectively means that leg kicks are too risky to ever even attempt to throw, because even if you're doing everything right and landing clean un-checked kicks in perfect range, you're still putting yourself at huge risk of being put into SIDE CONTROL (!) without the other guy even having to attempt the timed undeniable takedowns.

I mean this sounds perfect and exactly how it should be. In real life throwing kicks (especially naked) against a grappler is dangerous.

I’ll always remember Aldo vs Franke first fight. Aldo landed some devestating leg kicks but stopped throwing them during the fight. When he was asked why he said it because he was worried about being taken down.

We’ve already agreed that there should be better options for cage cutting but this aspect of leg kicks is very realistic.

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean this sounds perfect and exactly how it should be. In real life throwing kicks (especially naked) against a grappler is dangerous.

No thanks. This is quite possibly one of the worst ideas so far. Why would you ever use guys like Barboza/Aldo if every leg kick results in a takedown even if you timed it perfectly?

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean this sounds perfect and exactly how it should be. In real life throwing kicks (especially naked) against a grappler is dangerous.

I’ll always remember Aldo vs Franke first fight. Aldo landed some devestating leg kicks but stopped throwing them during the fight. When he was asked why he said it because he was worried about being taken down.

We’ve already agreed that there should be better options for cage cutting but this aspect of leg kicks is very realistic.

Yeah we need a scramble position, a lot of times Edgar gave his leg to Aldo kick so he could catch, but when he got Aldo legs Aldo scrambled off very quickly

[TheRizzzle]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Problem with that is it might be too easy to pressure fighters with lower footwork and bad grappling into a clinch situation.

If they have bad footwork and poor grappling, wouldn't that be the exact reason someone would find themselves in a clinch situation they don't want to be in?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

No thanks. This is quite possibly one of the worst ideas so far. Why would you ever use guys like Barboza/Aldo if every leg kick results in a takedown even if you timed it perfectly?

Sorry if I wasnt clear. That isnt what Im saying or what he was saying.

You CAN still deny it but the window is small. The window should vary depending on TD offense vs TD defense.

Honestly there should be a perk for guys like Aldo/Jones who have great hips and can still defend a TD on one leg.

Barboza struggles against wrestlers because of this concept as well. It’s very real.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

No thanks. This is quite possibly one of the worst ideas so far. Why would you ever use guys like Barboza/Aldo if every leg kick results in a takedown even if you timed it perfectly?

No, but if u fight a khabib guy, u have to avoid use leg kicks.
It’s how it works...

[tomitomitomi]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

Barboza struggles against wrestlers because of this concept as well. It’s very real.

Does he? The only guys who beat him by grappling were Khabib and Kevin Lee. Barboza's weakness has been pressure fighters who don't let him stay still and throw kicks which you can already do.

Funnily enough somewhere in this clip Conor talked about how it's a myth that you don't kick wrestlers.

No, but if u fight a khabib guy, u have to avoid use leg kicks.
It’s how it works...

Then why not go all in and make it so you have to pre-deny any Khabib takedown because that's how it works in real life? Realism alone is not a sufficient argument when it's clear as day UFC 4 will not be a hardcore simulator.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

I mean this sounds perfect and exactly how it should be. In real life throwing kicks (especially naked) against a grappler is dangerous.

I’ll always remember Aldo vs Franke first fight. Aldo landed some devestating leg kicks but stopped throwing them during the fight. When he was asked why he said it because he was worried about being taken down.

We’ve already agreed that there should be better options for cage cutting but this aspect of leg kicks is very realistic.

The thing is, in the game, it doesn't matter if you set them up perfectly. That's my whole point. You can waffle the guy with an entire clean 4-piece combo and end it with a leg kick. He eats the leg kick and gets a free power double into side control.

It's super whack. You and I are usually on the same page, so I'm surprised you're okay with this when there are already ways to time takedowns against kicks to make them undeniable.

No thanks. This is quite possibly one of the worst ideas so far. Why would you ever use guys like Barboza/Aldo if every leg kick results in a takedown even if you timed it perfectly?

Exactly. And that's what happens right now in top level UFC3 matches against players who use grapplers and know how the GA works. They purposely will eat leg kicks to get power-doubles into dominant positions and it's super dumb. An entire weapon (leg kick) is stripped away because any dummy with half a break can purposely eat the kick for a free takedown.

If the kicker can make the kicks land CLEAN, the opponent should not gain an enormous advantage just for standing there like a practice dummy.

They make the kicker whiff? Okay, give GA for a takedown. They check the kick? Cool, give GA for a takedown. They shoot at *just* the right time during the kick's active frames? Give the undeniable takedown.

But standing there and EATING the kick clean? No. That should not be rewarded at all.

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

And both times Conor fought a wrestler he was taken down repeatedly lol.

I’m willing to agree to disagree here. If video game balance is your end goal then we just have two different visions for the future of the game. I want one where all styles are viable and have strengths/weaknesses. Styles make fights IRL.

I think perfect video game balance leads to everyone being able to do everything and it’ll always come down to just stick skills instead of matchups. Some people like that but it’s not for me.

[bmlimo]

Re: Circling Out --- Sprint Option For UFC 4

The thing is, in the game, it doesn't matter if you set them up perfectly. That's my whole point. You can waffle the guy with an entire clean 4-piece combo and end it with a leg kick. He eats the leg kick and gets a free power double into side control.

It's super whack. You and I are usually on the same page, so I'm surprised you're okay with this when there are already ways to time takedowns against kicks to make them undeniable.



Exactly. And that's what happens right now in top level UFC3 matches against players who use grapplers and know how the GA works. They purposely will eat leg kicks to get power-doubles into dominant positions and it's super dumb. An entire weapon (leg kick) is stripped away because any dummy with half a break can purposely eat the kick for a free takedown.

If the kicker can make the kicks land CLEAN, the opponent should not gain an enormous advantage just for standing there like a practice dummy.

They make the kicker whiff? Okay, give GA for a takedown. They check the kick? Cool, give GA for a takedown. They shoot at *just* the right time during the kick's active frames? Give the undeniable takedown.

But standing there and EATING the kick clean? No. That should not be rewarded at all.

If the kick land clean the opponent should lose balance, but if you shot the takedown in the moment the kick land, you should be able to at least hold the leg, as I said before, let’s hope we can get new animations and scrambling situations and everything will fit better