Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

[phillyfan23]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I rewatched the fight another 4 times last night and tonight.

After watching it live with Rogan's biased commentary, I had Rua winning 3 rounds to 2.

But after really studying the fight, It's either a machida win or a draw if you're strictly basing this fight on a 10 point must system. Let me explain......

The first 3 rounds, Machida EEKED them out. i mean barely won with the 3rd being his most decisive.

The 2nd round is the closest and this coulda been called a 10-10 round or 10-9 machida.

The last 2 rounds CLEARLY belonged to Shogun. Machida gassed, moved much slower got hit more, and Shogun didn't eek these last 2 , he won them outright.

That's why I believe fans were upset, Shogun won the big war, but that's not how the fight is judged. Shogun winning the last 2 rounds also left the most impression on the fans. Also the cuts, the immobility of Machida gave the impression that Shogun was getting the better of him.

If this was a street fight, Shogun won hands down because he came out in better shape, was on the verge of dominating Machida.

But since it is a 10 point system, the refs' decisions don't seem too bad. I have it as a draw or a slight machida win with the UFC rules, and a clear Shogun win with Pride/street fight rules. if there was a round 6, my money is on Shogun to put Machida to sleep based on how that fight was going.

If I was the UFC ruler ,

My scoring would be:

Round 1: 20-19 Machida
Round 2: 20-19 Machida
Round 3: 20-19 Machida
Round 4: 20-17 Rua
Round 5: 20-17 Rua

Rua wins 97-94

[sven]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I'm just glad Okami lost. He looked a little better than I thought he would.

[DueceDiggla]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Again I thought it was a great fight even though Rua should've won. Probably my favorite fight of the year so far.


Cain doesn't do it for me. He's fought Kongo, Rothwell and scrubs. I want him to fight someone who has any kind of ground game. I don't think he would stand a chance against Brock or Carwin at this point.


I heard that Joe Silva told Anthony Johnson that he is making him move to MW after he didn't make weight.

[Dondadda]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I didn't think the fight was boring at all. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. It was like watching Ryu vs. Sagat.

My view of the UFC 104 card is completley opposite to yours. I fell asleep a few times during the Machida match (I thought it was even worse than Silva / Leites), and I thought the Rothwell situation was a complete joke (both that he was even in the match and the stoppage), but I really enjoyed the rest of the card.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Other thoughts for 104:

- What a performance by Velasquez. He made Rothwell look like an amateur. He had a right to complain about the stoppage since he was on his way up but he would have lost anyways. Velasquez deserves to fight the winner of Carwin/Lesnar.

.

Still too early for Cain to get a shot in my opinion. Especially with guys like Mir, Nog and Dos Santos around. I would like to see him beat one of them before he's given a shot.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

My view of the UFC 104 card is completley opposite to yours. I fell asleep a few times during the Machida match (I thought it was even worse than Silva / Leites), and I thought the Rothwell situation was a complete joke (both that he was even in the match and the stoppage), but I really enjoyed the rest of the card.

LOL...I dont know how anyone can say this was worse than Silva/Leites. That fight had 3 rounds where Leites refused to engage and just fell on his back. 3 straight rounds of that. Rua and Machida werent throwing bombs but they at least engaged. You need to watch Silva/Leites again.

[jeremym480]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

My view of the UFC 104 card is completley opposite to yours. I fell asleep a few times during the Machida match (I thought it was even worse than Silva / Leites), and I thought the Rothwell situation was a complete joke (both that he was even in the match and the stoppage), but I really enjoyed the rest of the card.

I completely disagree here. But, I guess most causal MMA fans only want to see slug-fest and knockouts and that's not what MMA is all about.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I completely disagree here. But, I guess most causal MMA fans only want to see slug-fest and knockouts and that's not MMA is all about.

I think that the Rua/Machida fight is one of the most polarizing fights in MMA history. Some people think Machida won. Some think Rua won. some think it was a great fight. Some think it was boring. I thought it was a great chess match. The only round I was bored was round 3.

[phillyfan23]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

I thought the machida-shogun fight was a great great fight. Every strike was calculated and not very many wasted motions.

The defenses of both fighters were phenomenal so neither fighter was near any kind of danger. We see some fights sometimes with brutal KOs because the opponent has no defense and the winner swings wildly the entire fight. Some may call that exciting, but I don't enjoy those type of fights one bit. Dime in a dozen.

Or neither fighter gets hurt because their striking accuracy is woeful.

This fight turned out the way it did, because of the supreme skill of the fighters. Really awesome fight......a real martial arts fight if you ask me. conflicting styles, but in the end very beautiful displays by both men.

[woody2goody]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

Ok, I'm watching the fight again.

Round 1 looks like a draw, maybe to Rua but not as clearly as I thought the first time.

Round 2 is very even, I'll give this one to Rua because of the many knees landed to the legs in the clinch at the end of the round.

Round 3 goes to Machida. He was more efficient and landed a more strikes, however Rua landed a really hard body kick and a hard punch at the end. Very close but Lyoto's round. 1-1 at this point.

Round 4 went fairly easily to Rua. He dissected Machida with quick kicks and good combinations. Lyoto looks to be limping noticeably now, slowing his movement around the ring. 2-1 to Rua.

Round 5 went to Rua based on control of his strikes, aggression and defence. Machida looked like he didn't have any ideas left, he was also bloodied in that round.

My final score is three rounds to one for Rua, and although the first round could have gone either way, that obviously would still have only been 3-2. I appreciate the fact that one round either way from 3-2 would give Machida the win, but in my opinion, Shogun won the last two rounds by a much bigger margin than Lyoto's round win(s).

Rua's kicks made the difference throughout. Lyoto landed three or four good punches, and three or four good knees, but Shogun landed a good 20 kicks to the legs and to the midsection, plus his knees in the clinch in Round 2 did a lot of damage to Lyoto's thighs.

In my opinion, it was a closer fight than I had first thought, however Rua was still the better man, and while it wasn't the worst decision I've ever seen as I thought when I watched it the first time, it was still a bad one when all said and done.

However, that doesn't take away from the fact that it was a great bout of mixed martial arts, and I would love to see them fight again as soon as possible in order to settle it for now at least.

[MC Fatigue]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

The Velasquez fight. Do you really think he could beat lesnar? From what I have seen is someone with good wrestling who cant finish it on the ground.

Yes he beat rothwell but even though he was beating his face in, Rothwell still wasn't out. I am not saying Cain didnt deserve that win because he obviously dominated the fight but against two opponents (rothwell, kongo) he didnt finish it and to beat Lesnar, I dont think what he did to win those fights will fly. Just an opinion, whats yours?

I don't think he's big enough or strong enough. He'd be fighting a wrestler every bit as qualified as himself, but twice the size.

On the other hand - who knows, maybe he could pull something off.

[Wet Bandit]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

The criticism Velasquez gets drives me nuts. He just got done absolutely dominating a top 15-ish heavyweight, tossing him around at will and outstriking him roughly 75-5, and he still gets criticized? Why? Because he didn't get clean knockouts against Kongo and Rothwell, two guys who have been TKO'd a combined four times in 56 fights.

And yet Carwin gets this crazy hype and for what? For finishing the same sort of guys that Cain has had zero problem finishing, and then nearly losing to Gonzaga before catching him with a clean shot and knocking him out, making that Gonzaga's fourth TKO loss in 15 fights.

If Cain could make 205, his ground and pound with his chin could have him dominate that division. As it is, the only way he's losing at heavyweight is if someone is significantly bigger and stronger than him, which unfortunately for Cain, Brock Lesnar is.

[XFactah416]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

IF you guys use FightMetric, it says that Shogun outstruck Machida 2-1. Keep in mind this is just pure statistical analysis and not biased at ALL.

http://fightmetric.com/fights/Machida-Shogun.html

Yes, the rounds were close, but honestly, I thought Shogun won 49-46. Live I thought he won 49-46, watching it again I still think he won 49-46.

Oh, and if people are scoring fights differently because it is a title fight, then there is a serious, serious issue with scoring combat sports. Shogun should not have to decaptiate Machida to win a title. He outpointed Lyoto, which nobody thought was possible, which to me is an even more amazing feat then just flash KOing Lyoto.

If you don't think that Shogun did enough damage, then why was Lyoto consistently changing stances because of Shogun's vicious leg kicks? Why were Lyoto's ribs red? Why did Lyoto's face have cuts on them?

I'm sorry, I just have a strong, strong disagreement with a fight where someone outstrikes someone 2-1, inflicts more visible damage then the champion, and loses 48-47. That's practically unheard of. Forrest didn't decisively beat Rampage either.. because at best, he drew with him. Rampage won 1, 3, and 4, and Forrest won 2 and 5 (2 = 10-8). And yes, in this fight, Forrest outstruck Rampage, but the majority of Forrest's strikes were LowPer.

[aholbert32]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

The criticism Velasquez gets drives me nuts. He just got done absolutely dominating a top 15-ish heavyweight, tossing him around at will and outstriking him roughly 75-5, and he still gets criticized? Why? Because he didn't get clean knockouts against Kongo and Rothwell, two guys who have been TKO'd a combined four times in 56 fights.

And yet Carwin gets this crazy hype and for what? For finishing the same sort of guys that Cain has had zero problem finishing, and then nearly losing to Gonzaga before catching him with a clean shot and knocking him out, making that Gonzaga's fourth TKO loss in 15 fights.

If Cain could make 205, his ground and pound with his chin could have him dominate that division. As it is, the only way he's losing at heavyweight is if someone is significantly bigger and stronger than him, which unfortunately for Cain, Brock Lesnar is.

I actually dont think Cain or Carwin deserve a shot yet. Carwin got it because Mir doesnt deserve a rematch yet, Nog hadnt beaten Couture yet, Randy, Kongo and Cro Cop keep losing, and Dos Santos isnt ready yet either. Lesner wanted to fight so Dana had a choice...sacrifice Carwin or Cain. Carwin is the better choice because he doesnt have great name recognition, can promote the fight with his trash talking and is probably a easy win for Brock.

The UFC has big plans for Cain and wants to keep him undefeated as long as it can with hopes that he becomes popular in Mexico.

[VanCitySportsGuy]

Re: Machida vs Shogun...UFC 104

The Velasquez fight. Do you really think he could beat lesnar? From what I have seen is someone with good wrestling who cant finish it on the ground.

Yes he beat rothwell but even though he was beating his face in, Rothwell still wasn't out. I am not saying Cain didnt deserve that win because he obviously dominated the fight but against two opponents (rothwell, kongo) he didnt finish it and to beat Lesnar, I dont think what he did to win those fights will fly. Just an opinion, whats yours?

I don't think Cain would beat Lesnar but it's a fight I want to see. Cain has a good chin and his cardio is top notch. The HW is pretty thin right now. The only other HW that should get a title shot is Dos Santos (assuming he beats Gonzaga). There might be a UFC card next April in Mexico so a title fight for Cain would make business sense.

Don't forget Lesnar was only 1-1 in the UFC before he got a title shot.