VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

[bc21045]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

The question i ask myself regarding that though, is, if that is true, how come physics, true player motion, pass and run blocking logic, and o/d line interactions were never addressed until Cam Weber came?

I'm not sure when Cam Weber came but they've talked about improving those things before.

Madden 10:
Pro-Tak animation technology providing unprecedented control over the outcome of every play via the dragging and dropping of players, a new blocking system and more.

Madden 11:
All-new locomotion provides true acceleration and deceleration, plus natural planting and cutting, while delivering the authentic-feeling Madden NFL to date.

Madden 12:
the new system uses a player's momentum and over 100 new tackle animations, including 40 gang tackles.

Players in zone and man coverage will properly recognize and react to plays, resulting in a defensive team that truly works together.

Madden 13:

With a completely redesigned passing game, including a new pass-ready system, improved play action, and the all-new read and react defensive AI system that features the most intelligent pass defense to date, Madden NFL 13 achieves greater realism on the virtual gridiron on both sides of the ball. In addition, Madden NFL 13 delivers physics you can feel. Powered by the all-new Infinity game engine, true player impact and authentic momentum transfer ensure that no two plays ever look or feel the same.

[jpdavis82]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

to be honest tho... each of these facets of gameplay haven't been OVERHAULED exactly. Physics is still very subpar. More like augmented animations to their limbs. They just manipulate the animations to appear like physics. There are countless examples of this. Like when you hurdle and get hit in mid air... you see the same 3 animations take place. A true physics engine would change these scenarios each time.

The jury is still out for true player motion and o/d blocking and interactions. I don't feel much of a difference in madden 25 current gen.. hopefully next gen is changed more.

I just feel that these CHANGES are more like bandaids on a broken engine. Everything that EA says that they are overhauling never truly feels like a new part to the game. Maybe its the crappy player models.. or the crappy animations that ruin these changes... but I know I am not alone when i say that the general 'feel' to the game hasnt changed in a decade.

I don't in any way feel like those additions are up to what they should be, but rather look at them as foundations.

That's how I think this dev team feels in general, that they are laying the foundations now and will keep building and improving them over the next few years. Rex clearly is not satisfied where the game is right now and realizes the need for change. Have the past developers even said that before? I mean yeah they've made fun of certain elements from the previous year, but I don't remember them ever saying our animation quality is poor or that certain things weren't being done in a realistic manner.

I think Rex and Cam and the development team in general is on the same page for the most part with what everyone wants.

[jpdavis82]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

I'm not sure when Cam Weber came but they've talked about improving those things before.

Madden 10:
Pro-Tak animation technology providing unprecedented control over the outcome of every play via the dragging and dropping of players, a new blocking system and more.

Madden 11:
All-new locomotion provides true acceleration and deceleration, plus natural planting and cutting, while delivering the authentic-feeling Madden NFL to date.

Madden 12:
the new system uses a player's momentum and over 100 new tackle animations, including 40 gang tackles.

Players in zone and man coverage will properly recognize and react to plays, resulting in a defensive team that truly works together.

Madden 13:

With a completely redesigned passing game, including a new pass-ready system, improved play action, and the all-new read and react defensive AI system that features the most intelligent pass defense to date, Madden NFL 13 achieves greater realism on the virtual gridiron on both sides of the ball. In addition, Madden NFL 13 delivers physics you can feel. Powered by the all-new Infinity game engine, true player impact and authentic momentum transfer ensure that no two plays ever look or feel the same.

Cam came as they finished Madden 12, so basically since Madden 13.
Rex came in during M13 and was named creative director of gameplay as they started working on Madden 25.

The blocking work they've done in the past is not even close to what they had Clint come in and do. Clint basically overhauled all of blocking for run and passing game. Huge difference in what he did and what we've seen in the past.

[roadman]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

To bc- Cam came in at the start of 12, probably after the ideas were already implemented.

[SoxFan01605]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

The question i ask myself regarding that though, is, if that is true, how come physics, true player motion, pass and run blocking logic, and o/d line interactions were never addressed until Cam Weber came?

As mentioned, interaction and player motion were both addressed to an extent and certainly discussed while Ian Cummings was there too. Other aspects to enhance realism were as well. I felt he was genuine in his desire to make a realistic game. Execution wasn't particularly good, but the same can be said under Weber to this point as well, which points, IMO, to an overriding issue.

I believe physics is more timing. If you look at the landscape of sports games as a whole, all of them introduced physics around the same time. Some industry evolutions are more global in that sense. Plus, that was something also looked into well before it was actually introduced.

Now, I'm not saying there isn't a real change in direction, nor am I meaning to discredit Cam Weber or anyone. I'm just saying that, thus far, it's more talk than results, so it's easy to understand the "show me" mentality before people have faith. So, I kind of agree with what bc21045 alluded to, in that the direction (and, thus, any real change in focus) would be dictated from higher up.

[AaronS444]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

When push comes to shove these guys aren't gonna have anymore control than any past team has. Hopefully they get the game turned around sooner rather than later though.

That's what I fear in this situation.

EA is like Ford and Chevy. They sold a gagillion cars and trucks every year, and for years. But, in time Honda and Toyota started taking market share and eventually they just flat out started making better products.

Problem here is, Toyota is not around to kick EAs candy... behind.

Anyway. I read Rex's piece, and I want to believe The Suits are the problem. But I've gone 10 full years without that Madden 2005, can't put it down feeling. I want that back!! I don't care how! Just give it to me!!

They stole it from us, my precious!

[Jetpac]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

That's what I fear in this situation.

EA is like Ford and Chevy. They sold a gagillion cars and trucks every year, and for years. But, in time Honda and Toyota started taking market share and eventually they just flat out started making better products.

Problem here is, Toyota is not around to kick EAs candy... behind.

Anyway. I read Rex's piece, and I want to believe The Suits are the problem. But I've gone 10 full years without that Madden 2005, can't put it down feeling. I want that back!! I don't care how! Just give it to me!!

They stole it from us, my precious!

Ford >> Toyota sir.

[AaronS444]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

Ford >> Toyota sir.

If you're buying a truck, maybe.

[jpdavis82]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

I don't get the Cam vs Ian comparisons. Mike Young has the same job now as Ian had then. Cam would have been a couple tiers above Ian in positioning.

[Jetpac]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

If you're buying a truck, maybe.

Ford trucks >> Toyota
Ford fusion >> Toyota - look at your all around saftey and drive features not to mention reliablility.
Ford mustang >> Scion
Fusion hybrid or cmax >> Prius

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

[ruttentud]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

They talk about not wanting to add things to the game that the user has no control over.
Add an option: "Simulation" or "Casual"
There you go. You can pay me now, EA.

Ew. Default All-Madden gives the best experience in 25? I love throwing for 90%.

[AaronS444]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

Jetpack,

Yes, American motor companies are coming back around. After about 2 decades of getting thief tails kicked by imports. Sad truth. If not for bailouts they'd be owned by their competition in more ways than just sales.

I didn't make that comparison to get into a car debate though.

I'm hoping EA stops rolling out Taruses, and turns out the Mercedes they annually rolled out from 2001-2005

[Jetpac]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

Jetpack,

Yes, American motor companies are coming back around. After about 2 decades of getting thief tails kicked by imports. Sad truth. If not for bailouts they'd be owned by their competition in more ways than just sales.

I didn't make that comparison to get into a car debate though.

I'm hoping EA stops rolling out Taruses, and turns out the Mercedes they annually rolled out from 2001-2005

lol its all good I know you didn't. I got the point you were making as well...

Oh btw.. ford never took a bailout

Alright I'll get back on topic now

[rootofalleli]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

I don't in any way feel like those additions are up to what they should be, but rather look at them as foundations.

That's how I think this dev team feels in general, that they are laying the foundations now and will keep building and improving them over the next few years. Rex clearly is not satisfied where the game is right now and realizes the need for change. Have the past developers even said that before? I mean yeah they've made fun of certain elements from the previous year, but I don't remember them ever saying our animation quality is poor or that certain things weren't being done in a realistic manner.

I think Rex and Cam and the development team in general is on the same page for the most part with what everyone wants.

I agree from recent interviews that they know as well as we do what's not working and that they have their hearts in the right place. But middle management has never been the biggest problem with Madden. You're one of many who dislike things Ian said, for example, while others admire his approach. Still, Ian didn't screw the game up - it's more that he couldn't implement his vision (flawed as it may have been) and had to make major compromises to keep the big bosses happy.

So far the current team has a longer leash - they're more candid and more sim-friendly. But the big strategy is unchanged: patch over old tech and charge full price for incremental improvements. I'd be thrilled with "War in the Trenches" and "True Step" if the game were coming out in 2-4 years. We can tell ourselves we're paying $60/year to support a great NFL sim called Madden 18, sort of like backing a Kickstarter or something.

Much like Kickstarter, it's a risk. When you drop $300 for the Deluxe Supporter Awesome Pack or whatever, you risk supporting a game that will never ship or that will change massively. The good thing about indie projects on Kickstarter is that they are indie projects. Some of those developers are unprepared or are outright scammers. But many are committed to a vision they love and are their own bosses. Some will rely on traditional investment beyond the Kickstarter campaign, which may mean some compromises. And some projects will change because of creative or technical issues. They won't have the problems Madden has, however. EA seems determined to keep using the same basic engine. Ignite and so on are patches, not deep changes to the core animations. The new consoles allow EA to run the same old code and squeeze in more animations for the "War in the Trenches," but that's not enough to make this a fresh start full of hope.

If Madden were a Kickstarter project with more realistic ambitions from both sides, no animosity, and no yearly release, I'd feel better about spending something on it. Alas, the guys at the top are bungling cheapskate meddlers and the guys doing the work have the thankless job of replicating America's favorite sport. They can't just focus on the beta, post some videos every few months, and keep positive buzz in the forums. I would never touch a Kickstarter that said, "We'll be polishing up our work-in-progress for an annual release to maintain funding. Also, no one working on this project really owns it, so if better opportunities come along or if you guys are dicks or if the ill-conceived annual release doesn't sell, seeya."

So yeah, this dev team seems great and they are maybe in a better spot than previous teams. It's not enough to make me optimistic: they still have too much to accomplish and not enough backing to make it happen. It's like this dev team is a bunch of contractors trying to rebuild an apartment building without kicking out the tenants and shutting down. If too many people move out new contractors will be hired, so they have to convince the tenants to keep paying rent while they pry up the floorboards and replace them one by one. And obviously they take a lot of abuse from cynical people who've wondered for years where the bathroom sink went or why the thermostat has 100,000 settings that do nothing or why the refrigerator that was junked in 2007 is back with a new label. A fresh start is the only way out of this, but the big shots at EA - and the NFL and the NFLPA, to be fair - have made that a financial impossibility.

[jpdavis82]

Re: VSN Arcade Podcast scheduled to interview EA's Rex Dickson and Clint Oldenberg!

I agree from recent interviews that they know as well as we do what's not working and that they have their hearts in the right place. But middle management has never been the biggest problem with Madden. You're one of many who dislike things Ian said, for example, while others admire his approach. Still, Ian didn't screw the game up - it's more that he couldn't implement his vision (flawed as it may have been) and had to make major compromises to keep the big bosses happy.

So far the current team has a longer leash - they're more candid and more sim-friendly. But the big strategy is unchanged: patch over old tech and charge full price for incremental improvements. I'd be thrilled with "War in the Trenches" and "True Step" if the game were coming out in 2-4 years. We can tell ourselves we're paying $60/year to support a great NFL sim called Madden 18, sort of like backing a Kickstarter or something.

Much like Kickstarter, it's a risk. When you drop $300 for the Deluxe Supporter Awesome Pack or whatever, you risk supporting a game that will never ship or that will change massively. The good thing about indie projects on Kickstarter is that they are indie projects. Some of those developers are unprepared or are outright scammers. But many are committed to a vision they love and are their own bosses. Some will rely on traditional investment beyond the Kickstarter campaign, which may mean some compromises. And some projects will change because of creative or technical issues. They won't have the problems Madden has, however. EA seems determined to keep using the same basic engine. Ignite and so on are patches, not deep changes to the core animations. The new consoles allow EA to run the same old code and squeeze in more animations for the "War in the Trenches," but that's not enough to make this a fresh start full of hope.

If Madden were a Kickstarter project with more realistic ambitions from both sides, no animosity, and no yearly release, I'd feel better about spending something on it. Alas, the guys at the top are bungling cheapskate meddlers and the guys doing the work have the thankless job of replicating America's favorite sport. They can't just focus on the beta, post some videos every few months, and keep positive buzz in the forums. I would never touch a Kickstarter that said, "We'll be polishing up our work-in-progress for an annual release to maintain funding. Also, no one working on this project really owns it, so if better opportunities come along or if you guys are dicks or if the ill-conceived annual release doesn't sell, seeya."

So yeah, this dev team seems great and they are maybe in a better spot than previous teams. It's not enough to make me optimistic: they still have too much to accomplish and not enough backing to make it happen. It's like this dev team is a bunch of contractors trying to rebuild an apartment building without kicking out the tenants and shutting down. If too many people move out new contractors will be hired, so they have to convince the tenants to keep paying rent while they pry up the floorboards and replace them one by one. And obviously they take a lot of abuse from cynical people who've wondered for years where the bathroom sink went or why the thermostat has 100,000 settings that do nothing or why the refrigerator that was junked in 2007 is back with a new label. A fresh start is the only way out of this, but the big shots at EA - and the NFL and the NFLPA, to be fair - have made that a financial impossibility.

Cam isn't middle management, Andrew Wilson is one of the only guys above him. This direction is coming from Cam and trickling down.