Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Just a heads up guys, if you want something like this to be fixed you need video. Screenshots isn't going to cut it. It's extremely easy to quickly record clips on console and I'm all for seeing tighter defense as it's something that's been frustrating me as well but they need video of what the problems you're having are and it makes it so much easier for me to pass along and compile.

Exactly. I have a question I hope you could answer in regards to videos. I am asking here because maybe it could help others create better videos for EA.

Is there a way to "free draw" on a video like the Telestrator used by John Madden? I wish to make some videos which highlight Madden issues while also being able to draw in solutions directly on the video.

Thank you for your time and any advice.

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Exactly. I have a question I hope you could answer in regards to videos. I am asking here because maybe it could help others create better videos for EA.

Is there a way to "free draw" on a video like the Telestrator used by John Madden? I wish to make some videos which highlight Madden issues while also being able to draw in solutions directly on the video.

Thank you for your time and any advice.

There's software that you could purchase that would do that, I believe. There's probably some kind of free option for that available too but I'd have to do some searching but the ability to do that is out there.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

There's software that you could purchase that would do that, I believe. There's probably some kind of free option for that available too but I'd have to do some searching but the ability to do that is out there.

Cool. Thank you for reply. I'll continue looking. I am just getting started. I hope to outline the Cover 4 as a starting point. It can be such a universal pattern match coverage if the AI logic was solid.

One of my thoughts is that the Cover 4 may have to be broken down into further variations.

[NoleFan]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Frustrating to see this. I gave up on playing anything but Cover 0 and Cover 1 the last few years because your safeties are useless and drop far too deep, taking themselves out of most plays. You're playing 7 or 8 on 11 most times you play Cover 3 or 4; might as well gamble with Cover 0 or 1.

Thanks for this tip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[howboutdat]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Ok , look most of the gameplay in this game is improved and thats great. I know i heard someone on a stream from ea say something along the lines of the pass rush will make up for the zones not playing great. This is a very poor thought process.

I get it , they have limited time and cleaned up a lot of things. But they have got to do some work on the def AI THIS YEAR , not wait for Madden 21. As good as things are playing in many areas, leaving this area undone all year will only be a huge stain on what could be called a great madden game. They have really got to fix these def AI issues so defense plays defense again.

In all honesty this should be the only thing they are looking at patching right now. Touch nothing else ( other than maybe AI for my hb to actually block someone when i tell him to pass block instead of letting people run right by him untouched) . There is not a lot of glaring issues outside of this, so im hoping they spend their time focusing in on this stuff for their patches.

[UtahUtes32]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

They haven't spent enough time in updating or fixing secondary play. The OP was 100% spot on. Cover 1 isn't good, my main issue has always been safety play. But since I play as safety or corner most of the time, it mitigates it.

[PhillyPhanatic14]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I'm also seeing a lot of braindead defenders when the ball is in the air. I know there's no more hero LB ints, but I have been throwing the ball straight over safeties, with little arc, and it goes right past them to my player. Doesn't make sense. In QB1 the camera is lower so you can really get a feel for how close the D is to the ball and I've had this happen a few times now.

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Please do not take the following statements as me defending EA OR as me negating anyone's observation. I have been a pc gamer for a long time. Last year I picked up madden 19 for the first pc release via Origin premier and have started playing madden 20 as well.

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I see the photos of the players out of position and without context it looks super silly. Regardless of everything else the defenders should at least LOOK like they know what they're doing.

That being said, how do we know coverage is broken?

As I understand it there are several ratings that determine how a defensive back will play.

Awareness, zone ability, man ability, play recognition, agility, speed, etc. etc.

Are the inconsistencies that we are seeing functional correct? Does the dice roll against their rating say that the defender is going to misread the route, or get confused about which zone/man they are supposed to be covering based on the given AI defensive backs ratings.

What I don't see in these photos is the defenders ratings AND how often they screw up in a game. If you have a level 70 defender who screws up twice a game I don't consider that broken.

Now if you have a 99 rated cb who screws up every other play I can agree that it is broken.

My suggestion is to set up a defense of 99 rated secondary and test that to see if it is broken. I would agree that it is broken If they react the same way as described in this thread.

If they don't then the conversation moves from "The pass coverage is broken" to "The pass coverage defenders ratings affect their play more than I like".

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Again, I am not defending the devs or trying to discredit the users. I don't know the history of development and how pass coverage has been developed.

I believe that this may be a case of "black box" code not meeting the expectations of the end user.

I am interested to hear if this has already been tested.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Please do not take the following statements as me defending EA OR as me negating anyone's observation. I have been a pc gamer for a long time. Last year I picked up madden 19 for the first pc release via Origin premier and have started playing madden 20 as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see the photos of the players out of position and without context it looks super silly. Regardless of everything else the defenders should at least LOOK like they know what they're doing.

That being said, how do we know coverage is broken?

As I understand it there are several ratings that determine how a defensive back will play.

Awareness, zone ability, man ability, play recognition, agility, speed, etc. etc.

Are the inconsistencies that we are seeing functional correct? Does the dice roll against their rating say that the defender is going to misread the route, or get confused about which zone/man they are supposed to be covering based on the given AI defensive backs ratings.

What I don't see in these photos is the defenders ratings AND how often they screw up in a game. If you have a level 70 defender who screws up twice a game I don't consider that broken.

Now if you have a 99 rated cb who screws up every other play I can agree that it is broken.

My suggestion is to set up a defense of 99 rated secondary and test that to see if it is broken. I would agree that it is broken If they react the same way as described in this thread.

If they don't then the conversation moves from "The pass coverage is broken" to "The pass coverage defenders ratings affect their play more than I like".

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, I am not defending the devs or trying to discredit the users. I don't know the history of development and how pass coverage has been developed.

I believe that this may be a case of "black box" code not meeting the expectations of the end user.

I am interested to hear if this has already been tested.

These are some very valid points. I have pondered over many of these points. How does one represent the rating differences between a good defender, a solid defender and a great defender?

Some of the things that differentiate between a good and great defender cannot always be seen because they are mental (the film study). There are details in footwork and how a defender keeps their leverage and places their arms on the opposing player. The subtleties are very difficult to see for the average viewer and representing in a game would probably be a waste of resources.

If you're Xavier Rhodes, for example, and you cover Antonio Brown, well you are going to play off what Brown does best and look for cues. Covering Brown is different than covering someone like Julio Jones. Xavier Rhodes will take Jones on differently and watch for different cues of what the route will be and if Jones is the target receiver.

Cover 4 with adjustments can be used against any offensive formation, for the most part, but it would appear to require a lot of variations of the Cover 4 in Madden to represent all the adjustments. This could burden down the user/consumer as they attempt to learn all that the different Cover 4 variations and how they perform against each formation. The consumer would probably get lost trying to pick the proper variation of Cover 4.

I can see it being a little easier for the consumer if Coverages are setup so Cover 4 covers "X" types of route combos, while Cover 3 covers another set and Cover 2 another, and so on. The consumer has to be educated on each new addition to a game so they will be motivated to play.

I hope to see Madden coverages becoming more nuanced as their real counterparts. But for now, there are some areas I believe can be cleaned up or adjusted to at least make coverages look a little cleaner, or the results more believable.

I like how EA/Tib has added in more visual effects to tell the user when a player is on a hot streak or when a QB is under pressure or throwing off their back foot, as we see a pass fly off target. Just need more of those information pop-ups on the defensive side.

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

These are some very valid points. I have pondered over many of these points. How does one represent the rating differences between a good defender, a solid defender and a great defender?

Some of the things that differentiate between a good and great defender cannot always be seen because they are mental (the film study). There are details in footwork and how a defender keeps their leverage and places their arms on the opposing player. The subtleties are very difficult to see for the average viewer and representing in a game would probably be a waste of resources.

If you're Xavier Rhodes, for example, and you cover Antonio Brown, well you are going to play off what Brown does best and look for cues. Covering Brown is different than covering someone like Julio Jones. Xavier Rhodes will take Jones on differently and watch for different cues of what the route will be and if Jones is the target receiver.

Cover 4 with adjustments can be used against any offensive formation, for the most part, but it would appear to require a lot of variations of the Cover 4 in Madden to represent all the adjustments. This could burden down the user/consumer as they attempt to learn all that the different Cover 4 variations and how they perform against each formation. The consumer would probably get lost trying to pick the proper variation of Cover 4.

I can see it being a little easier for the consumer if Coverages are setup so Cover 4 covers "X" types of route combos, while Cover 3 covers another set and Cover 2 another, and so on. The consumer has to be educated on each new addition to a game so they will be motivated to play.

I hope to see Madden coverages becoming more nuanced as their real counterparts. But for now, there are some areas I believe can be cleaned up or adjusted to at least make coverages look a little cleaner, or the results more believable.

I like how EA/Tib has added in more visual effects to tell the user when a player is on a hot streak or when a QB is under pressure or throwing off their back foot, as we see a pass fly off target. Just need more of those information pop-ups on the defensive side.

The last paragraph is key I believe.

In real life when a defender jumps an out route that turns into an out an up we can see his reaction after the play. He's grabbing his helmet or shaking his head and indicating that he screwed up.

In the game when the defenders awareness, man coverage, and play recognition is rated 60 and and he jumps the same out and up we tend to think the AI is broken.

If a popup showed "misread route" when he jumped the route we would have the much needed transparency to understand why it happened.

As it stands now, we have no idea why on 1 play the CB defends as expected and on the next play the CB runs the opposite as the WR.

[ehh]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I see the photos of the players out of position and without context it looks super silly. Regardless of everything else the defenders should at least LOOK like they know what they're doing.

That being said, how do we know coverage is broken?

As I understand it there are several ratings that determine how a defensive back will play.

Awareness, zone ability, man ability, play recognition, agility, speed, etc. etc.

Are the inconsistencies that we are seeing functional correct? Does the dice roll against their rating say that the defender is going to misread the route, or get confused about which zone/man they are supposed to be covering based on the given AI defensive backs ratings.

What I don't see in these photos is the defenders ratings AND how often they screw up in a game. If you have a level 70 defender who screws up twice a game I don't consider that broken.

Now if you have a 99 rated cb who screws up every other play I can agree that it is broken.

My suggestion is to set up a defense of 99 rated secondary and test that to see if it is broken. I would agree that it is broken If they react the same way as described in this thread.

If they don't then the conversation moves from "The pass coverage is broken" to "The pass coverage defenders ratings affect their play more than I like".

These are legacy issues so I think we can make some safe assumptions. Maybe it's different in '20 but it doesn't seem to be the case. It's a gameplay issue, not a ratings one.

It's also a relative matter of CB vs WR. Sure, an 81 overall CB shouldn't play like a 95 overall CB, but they shouldn't consistently get roasted by a 79 overall WR. The delayed reaction and kooky behavior happen regardless of who they're covering, whether it's DeAndre Hopkins or a UDFA with an overall in the 60s. In my Jets CFM last year I built a fantastic secondary and I still got killed through the air on a weekly basis.

As for zone, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to call Cover 2/3/4 in the red zone and have your DBs with their heels on the backline of the end zone and let a receiver catch an easy TD in front of them. They have no spatial awareness.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

These are legacy issues so I think we can make some safe assumptions. Maybe it's different in '20 but it doesn't seem to be the case. It's a gameplay issue, not a ratings one.

It's also a relative matter of CB vs WR. Sure, an 81 overall CB shouldn't play like a 95 overall CB, but they shouldn't consistently get roasted by a 79 overall WR. The delayed reaction and kooky behavior happen regardless of who they're covering, whether it's DeAndre Hopkins or a UDFA with an overall in the 60s. In my Jets CFM last year I built a fantastic secondary and I still got killed through the air on a weekly basis.

As for zone, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to call Cover 2/3/4 in the red zone and have your DBs with their heels on the backline of the end zone and let a receiver catch an easy TD in front of them. They have no spatial awareness.

Agree on these points and that they need to be cleaned up. DBs facing away from the receiver, the lack of spatial awareness, etc. have been in-game too long and should be addressed ASAP.

We also need the players to react when they make a bad read, stumble or generally make an error. This would make the user aware that a player made a mistake and keep the user immersed.

Hopefully, there will be a renewed focus on defense in the near future. I would like to have DL stunts back someday.

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

These are legacy issues so I think we can make some safe assumptions. Maybe it's different in '20 but it doesn't seem to be the case. It's a gameplay issue, not a ratings one.

It's also a relative matter of CB vs WR. Sure, an 81 overall CB shouldn't play like a 95 overall CB, but they shouldn't consistently get roasted by a 79 overall WR. The delayed reaction and kooky behavior happen regardless of who they're covering, whether it's DeAndre Hopkins or a UDFA with an overall in the 60s. In my Jets CFM last year I built a fantastic secondary and I still got killed through the air on a weekly basis.

As for zone, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to call Cover 2/3/4 in the red zone and have your DBs with their heels on the backline of the end zone and let a receiver catch an easy TD in front of them. They have no spatial awareness.

"It's a gameplay issue, not a ratings one"

I don't know that we have the evidence to suggest that this is correct without the ability to turn on a "debugger" and watch the calculations play out and see what is supposed to be happening verses what is actually happening. This is the curse of a "closed system" that is not transparent. It looks broken when we don't understand how it works.

"an 81 overall CB shouldn't consistently get roasted by a 79 overall WR"

I am not sure I agree with this. All things being equal a evenly matched receiver should have an advantage over the defender given the quarterback has enough time to pass when the receiver makes his cut.

"The delayed reaction and kooky behavior happen regardless of who they're covering"

So this is kind of what I was talking about. We see a CB twitch back and forth and then make a move that may or may not be right. Is that a "broken system" or is that the system computing the AI's reaction and determining that "it took a few seconds for the CB to recognize the play which caused a delayed reaction"

"As for zone, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to call Cover 2/3/4 in the red zone and have your DBs with their heels on the backline of thea end zone and let a receiver catch an easy TD in front of them. They have no spatial awareness."

This is almost definitely a bug.

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There are concerns that the Secondary makes too many mistake to be realistic. It seems that people want the secondary to play like robots and not make mistakes. The developers ( if we believe they have done this on purpose) have done the much harder thing and coded the secondary to play like human beings that make mistakes.

I believe that this is an optics problem. We don't see why they are screwing up so we just see it as broken.

I will refrain from repeating my thoughts ad nauseam. I'm interested in the developing conversation.

[GameBreaker35]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

My biggest take away from the trial is that pass coverage needs a great deal of work. I’ll try to capture video to show some of the behavior that I’m seeing; however, one instance that I tested was immediately glaring: Man Coverage.

I went into practice mode with All-Pro Default settings, with Jaguars Offense and Baltimore Defense, and chose a stick concept against Nickel 2 Man Under. The Raven’s OLB CJ Mosley was assigned to the Jaguar’s TE O’Shaunsey(sp?). Every play when the TE made the out breaking cut, the OLB would break to the inside momentarily before trying to correct himself and track his man.

There wasn’t a play that this didn’t happen. It was 100% win for the offense.

Now, I found this to be odd that the OLB wouldn’t get a positive dice roll even once, given that the TE is so pedestrian, so I set out to see if I could increase the chances by increasing all of the coverage sliders to the max for the CPU.

Same result.

The OLB would still get out of position. This resulted in complete passes every time.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[ehh]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

"It's a gameplay issue, not a ratings one"

I don't know that we have the evidence to suggest that this is correct without the ability to turn on a "debugger" and watch the calculations play out and see what is supposed to be happening verses what is actually happening. This is the curse of a "closed system" that is not transparent. It looks broken when we don't understand how it works.

You're thinking way too hard about this. The evidence is that we've seen countless videos posted over the years of terrible DB behavior. When DBs all over the ratings spectrum routinely do wonky things that no one ever sees on a real NFL field, it doesn't matter if it's a closed system. It's a problem. You don't need a debugger to tell you that; the 'why' is irrelevant.

When my 91 ovr CB is in M2M coverage vs a buttonhook and takes three additional backpedals downfield after the WR plants his foot to turn, it's a problem. No NFL CB is that slow to react all the time. The same goes for dig routes, slants, etc.

When the opponent has the ball at my 15 and a WR runs a go route and my CB literally doesn't move after the snap, it's a problem.

When my CB is running stride for stride with a WR downfield and mysteriously slows down when the ball is thrown, it's a problem.

"an 81 overall CB shouldn't consistently get roasted by a 79 overall WR"

I am not sure I agree with this. All things being equal a evenly matched receiver should have an advantage over the defender given the quarterback has enough time to pass when the receiver makes his cut.

Okay, to clarify my point: take a 90 overall CB vs a WR rated in the high 70s. The WR will still win a majority of the time due to slow reactions from the CB.

"The delayed reaction and kooky behavior happen regardless of who they're covering"

So this is kind of what I was talking about. We see a CB twitch back and forth and then make a move that may or may not be right. Is that a "broken system" or is that the system computing the AI's reaction and determining that "it took a few seconds for the CB to recognize the play which caused a delayed reaction"

Go into practice mode on D with an elite CB against an average WR and have the CPU run 100 button hooks. See how many times the CB breaks up the pass. Play press coverage, audible to have your DBs play underneath. None of it will matter. The problem is that there are money routes--even for the CPU--because DBs by and large can't react in time. Out-routes have been money for years because of this.

The problem isn't that this happens sometimes. It's that it happens all the time, even with great DBs.

A superior CB shouldn't be incapable of defending a buttonhook, especially when I audible at the line to tell them to play underneath and when I know they have safety help over the top.

There are concerns that the Secondary makes too many mistake to be realistic. It seems that people want the secondary to play like robots and not make mistakes. The developers ( if we believe they have done this on purpose) have done the much harder thing and coded the secondary to play like human beings that make mistakes.

I believe that this is an optics problem. We don't see why they are screwing up so we just see it as broken.

Again, it's a legacy issue that tons of people have complained about for years. There are countless CPU plays where any receiver that runs a route with a break is wide open. It's far too easy to create space and HUM defenders are often too slow. The problem with "how the system manifests a defender getting beat" is that they often get beat so badly, in an unrealistic sense, that so much space is created and the CPU gets absurd RAC plays.

All you have to do is look at the CPU vs HUM on offense vs defense. CPU-controlled HUM teammates react far slower than the CPU's defenders.