Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[DeuceDouglas]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Here's an example of what I've been seeing a lot of with man coverage. Defenders seem to react very slowly to breaks and often bite hard in the opposite direction creating tons of separation. Granted this is OBJ vs. Darryl Roberts but that's an enormous amount of separation under any circumstance.

<iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AmusedFickleIraniangroundjay' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='404'></iframe>

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I will say this. I have burned through about 18 hours of play now games, and honestly the pass coverage is the worst so far out of any madden in recent history. The D-backs play the deep ball very well but it is way and I mean way to easy to dink and dunk this year. The problem I'm seeing is that the so called "new and improved pass rush" is definitely not generating pressure as quickly as people were saying in the beta and receivers are getting open way to easy especially against zone coverage. I have yet to have a game where mine or the CPU quarterback finishes with less than 69% completion percentage. Even inaccurate quarterbacks like Josh Allen are content to throw 3-5 yard passes for easy completions.

Great game! Animations are better than ever, game feels and plays smooth, lots of improved mechanics. But the defensive coverage is a huge sore spot for me this year

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

You're thinking way too hard about this. The evidence is that we've seen countless videos posted over the years of terrible DB behavior. When DBs all over the ratings spectrum routinely do wonky things that no one ever sees on a real NFL field, it doesn't matter if it's a closed system. It's a problem. You don't need a debugger to tell you that; the 'why' is irrelevant.

When my 91 ovr CB is in M2M coverage vs a buttonhook and takes three additional backpedals downfield after the WR plants his foot to turn, it's a problem. No NFL CB is that slow to react all the time. The same goes for dig routes, slants, etc.

When the opponent has the ball at my 15 and a WR runs a go route and my CB literally doesn't move after the snap, it's a problem.

When my CB is running stride for stride with a WR downfield and mysteriously slows down when the ball is thrown, it's a problem.



Okay, to clarify my point: take a 90 overall CB vs a WR rated in the high 70s. The WR will still win a majority of the time due to slow reactions from the CB.



Go into practice mode on D with an elite CB against an average WR and have the CPU run 100 button hooks. See how many times the CB breaks up the pass. Play press coverage, audible to have your DBs play underneath. None of it will matter. The problem is that there are money routes--even for the CPU--because DBs by and large can't react in time. Out-routes have been money for years because of this.

The problem isn't that this happens sometimes. It's that it happens all the time, even with great DBs.

A superior CB shouldn't be incapable of defending a buttonhook, especially when I audible at the line to tell them to play underneath and when I know they have safety help over the top.

Again, it's a legacy issue that tons of people have complained about for years. There are countless CPU plays where any receiver that runs a route with a break is wide open. It's far too easy to create space and HUM defenders are often too slow. The problem with "how the system manifests a defender getting beat" is that they often get beat so badly, in an unrealistic sense, that so much space is created and the CPU gets absurd RAC plays.

All you have to do is look at the CPU vs HUM on offense vs defense. CPU-controlled HUM teammates react far slower than the CPU's defenders.

"You're thinking way too hard about this."

I have had to look into way too many bugs that say "it doesn't work". My mind immediately goes to "how doesn't it work". Just a personality defect I suppose.

I agree with a lot of what you said. It is much more informative to describe these scenarios, which are likely very broken, than saying the whole system is broken.

That being said, just because their are exploitable routes in madden that making passing easy doesn't mean that madden is wrong. There are "money" plays in the real NFL. There's a reason the average NFL game in 2018 had 237 yards passing per game with a 64.9% completion percentage: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...FL/passing.htm. Offense inherently has an advantage of defense. I follow the steelers and I remember Ben having three 500+ yard passing games in one season. Adding difficulty to a game for difficulty sake does not make it more realistic.

As I said from my first post, I just got back into madden last year aften not playing since 13. I am out of my depth on the history of evidence that coverage is broken. I may be very naive and come to learn that the defense is completely broken. Until then I am still maintaining the possibility that defenders are animated in a way that look like they are broken but they are actually playing to their ratings, and it is possible that the ratings play too much of a factor into how they play.

"Go into practice mode on D with an elite CB against an average WR and have the CPU run 100 button hooks. See how many times the CB breaks up the pass. Play press coverage, audible to have your DBs play underneath. None of it will matter. The problem is that there are money routes--even for the CPU--because DBs by and large can't react in time. Out-routes have been money for years because of this."

This is good advice. it will help me understand the problem.

My last thought is this: It seems, TO ME, that a part of the problem with the defense is the twitchy robotic like animations. Insofar as the animation team doesn't know how to animate "blown coverage". The result is that the AI looks broken when in fact the twitchy animations were the attempt to render blown coverage( via jumping the route, or misreading the route, or looking in the backfield when they should have been watching the receiver, etc.,etc.).

Blown coverage happens all the time in real life. I watch the steelers and see too many times a season. And even the best get beat occasionally.

Steelers Blown Coverage

https://twitter.com/steelersdepot/status/1044693056178421760?lang=en

https://twitter.com/steelersdepot/status/1060720433656299520

https://twitter.com/NFL/status/823322787565535232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E823322787565535232&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnesn.com%2F2017%2F01%2Fchris-hogan-turns-blown-steelers-coverage-into-easy-patriots-touchdown%2F

https://twitter.com/steelersdepot/status/1074419734030893056

It is not my intention to argue with anyone. I see the points that you are making and you certainly have a lot of experience with the game. I just need to do my own homework to reach my own conclusion and you have provided me with testable situations so thanks for that.

[ChicagoChris]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Here's an example of what I've been seeing a lot of with man coverage. Defenders seem to react very slowly to breaks and often bite hard in the opposite direction creating tons of separation. Granted this is OBJ vs. Darryl Roberts but that's an enormous amount of separation under any circumstance.

<iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AmusedFickleIraniangroundjay' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='404'></iframe>

Hmm..Thats Daryl Roberts a 76 rated CB vs a HOF caliber WR 96 rated. I don't have a huge issue with it but if it happens 100% of the time, i see your point

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Hmm..Thats Daryl Roberts a 76 rated CB vs a HOF caliber WR 96 rated. I don't have a huge issue with it but if it happens 100% of the time, i see your point

https://twitter.com/steelersdepot/status/1060720433656299520

Here is a similar real life play where 3 defenders followed the crossing routes and left the running back wide open. Broken coverage happens.

We can go back and forth about how often it happens or how the game should animate "broken coverage" but if we want the game to emulate real life then broken coverage needs to be a part of that.

[canes21]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

That Deuce gif is not an example of broken coverage in the real life way, it is an example of what we keep complaining about. The DB's keep breaking in the opposite direction that the WR is cutting on their route in man coverage. That isn't some busted coverage. Even if he an OBJ were the only two players on that side of the field it would still happen the same way too often based off of what we are seeing.

I'm perfectly fine with calling some plays busted coverages if it is zone and the defenders all miscommunicate and cover the same WR and leave another wide open. That is a busted coverage. A DB reacting to a slant route by breaking towards the sideline is not a busted coverage, it's a broken one.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Here's an example of what I've been seeing a lot of with man coverage. Defenders seem to react very slowly to breaks and often bite hard in the opposite direction creating tons of separation. Granted this is OBJ vs. Darryl Roberts but that's an enormous amount of separation under any circumstance.

<iframe src='https://gfycat.com/ifr/AmusedFickleIraniangroundjay' frameborder='0' scrolling='no' allowfullscreen width='640' height='404'></iframe>

It actually appears in this video clip that the outside corner is reading the inside receiver route, and that would be a definite error, and not ratings, if my interpretation is correct.

So when the inside receiver gets picked up by the safety, the corner then takes the outside receiver. This should be patched.

[canes21]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

It actually appears in this video clip that the outside corner is reading the inside receiver route, and that would be a definite error, and not ratings, if my interpretation is correct.

So when the inside receiver gets picked up by the safety, the corner then takes the outside receiver. This should be patched.

He's not. It is man coverage, he is staring at OBJ the entire play which means he is his man. This is not a mishap in zone coverage. It is man coverage and the DB is breaking the opposite direction of the WR which is what a lot of these complaints are about.

[JKSportsGamer1984]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Just a heads up guys, if you want something like this to be fixed you need video. Screenshots isn't going to cut it. It's extremely easy to quickly record clips on console and I'm all for seeing tighter defense as it's something that's been frustrating me as well but they need video of what the problems you're having are and it makes it so much easier for me to pass along and compile.

I get what you're saying Duece, but with all due respect why should we have to do that? These coverage & legacy issues have been in the game for years if not decades. If they still need video proof from consumers to identify this then therein lies the bigger issue.

Like I said, I get the sentiment of what you're stating but it just seems like the same ol song & dance from EA with these legacy issues. Now we have to wait for patches which will inevitably mess up another aspect of the game.

Not trying to sound pessimistic but with Madden's history it's hard not to be. I mean how do some of these issues make it past their testers especially when they said they had a lot more time to identify them this year? It seems like pass coverage has regressed as if it could get any worse smh. There are moments when it works well but it's so inconsistent...

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

It actually appears in this video clip that the outside corner is reading the inside receiver route, and that would be a definite error, and not ratings, if my interpretation is correct.

So when the inside receiver gets picked up by the safety, the corner then takes the outside receiver.This should be patched.

What if the ratings/calculations for for this defender/WR matchup determines that he doesn't know which receiver to cover? If the calculation determines that the CB has (low awareness + low play recognition x random number) couldn't that result in covering the wrong receiver?

Some of the reasons that offenses use bunch is to create personnel mismatches or to create space between defenders and receivers. There is also a chance of confusing the defense as to which receiver to cover.

There is a possibility that it is working correctly but IT LOOKS broken due to bad animations.

We can agree that It looks broken but we don't know if it looks broken because it is actually broken or that it looks broken because the animations are bad + there is no on-screen indication of why it happens.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

He's not. It is man coverage, he is staring at OBJ the entire play which means he is his man. This is not a mishap in zone coverage. It is man coverage and the DB is breaking the opposite direction of the WR which is what a lot of these complaints are about.

I see that he is lined in apparent Man, but he drops in step with the inside receiver. He breaks to cover the outside receiver just as the safety picks up the inside receiver. Could be a coincidence I am seeing; I just have this clip to go on because I have only played an hour of my pre-play time and haven't seen this yet, and haven't tested outside routes against man.

So some people are saying the defender is slow to react to certain route cuts; that seems to be the case. I am merely tossing out the possibility that there could be a crossed wire, so to speak, in the coverage and defenders are picking up the wrong assignment somehow.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

What if the ratings/calculations for for this defender/WR matchup determines that he doesn't know which receiver to cover? If the calculation determines that the CB has (low awareness + low play recognition x random number) couldn't that result in covering the wrong receiver?

Some of the reasons that offenses use bunch is to create personnel mismatches or to create space between defenders and receivers. There is also a chance of confusing the defense as to which receiver to cover.

There is a possibility that it is working correctly but IT LOOKS broken due to bad animations.

We can agree that It looks broken but we don't know if it looks broken because it is actually broken or that it looks broken because the animations are bad + there is no on-screen indication of why it happens.

I agree that this could be a possibility. I have felt that the game lacks the appropriate amount of animations to properly cover all the possible results on a given play.

As people ask for more diverse ratings and rating spreads, there needs to be more animations to represent the differentiation in ratings too. This can create issues in gameplay results, and we could be seeing more of these delays in coverages.

[deiied]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I have use revival in madden 19 and I believe canes21 and xSABOx have worked on that mod.

They may actually know what the code is doing and can accurately tell us if the system is broken.

If any modders have insight into the code it would be super interesting to hear from them.

[canes21]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I see that he is lined in apparent Man, but he drops in step with the inside receiver. He breaks to cover the outside receiver just as the safety picks up the inside receiver. Could be a coincidence I am seeing; I just have this clip to go on because I have only played an hour of my pre-play time and haven't seen this yet, and haven't tested outside routes against man.

So some people are saying the defender is slow to react to certain route cuts; that seems to be the case. I am merely tossing out the possibility that there could be a crossed wire, so to speak, in the coverage and defenders are picking up the wrong assignment somehow.

It is man coverage. Deuce says it straight in his post. It's his team, his gameplay, I'd assume he knows what the defense is on the play. I doubt he is misleading us here as well. This is not a case of a guy following the wrong player in a zone, this play is 100% man coverage. It looks like Cover 1 based off of the safety coming down into the box.

You can also tell it is man by the fact that he is staring at the WR and not watching the QB. Like I said, you could run an our route or a slant route with two players left on an island on one side of the field and you'd see this happening too frequently. There would be no possibility for miscommunication in that scenario and it would show that the DB's are breaking the wrong way right now.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

If these missteps in coverage are due to the increased spread in ratings, I can live with that for now until more animations can be added.