Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[canes21]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I just want to step in and answer a question I didn't see answered. 4th, you were asking how should we represent better cover corners vs worse ones on routes. I think the answer is pretty simple. A guy with higher man coverage should react quicker to the WR's breaks which will create tighter windows. The worse coverage guys will play looser coverage, reacting slower.

Most blown coverages should come from rubs, or route combinations that confuse zones and scheme guys wide open. You don't really see a lot of wide open blown coverages in man in real life unless a guy is rubbed, he slips, or he covers the wrong guy completely.

[engrishbwudd]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Ill try this. So you’re saying pass react and coverage 100?


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That's what I'm rolling with currently. There are still a bunch of ugly blown coverages, but it doesn't seem to be as bad. Playing as the browns against the Panthers and both QBs are throwing around 80%, but there haven't been as many blown coverages by the safeties since I've changed the sliders. So maybe that's something to look at.

Still, it might be a fluke because the change isn't as drastic as it should be after maxing out the sliders, but I'll keep playing it to see if I can't pick up on consistencies/inconsistencies.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Lmao, yall are hilarious. I CLEARLY said, ive seen and witnessed bad coverage playing madden and others have posted these examples. You said its good, so i said post this good coverage as others have POSTED the bad. Now i hear excuses that i want you to do something for me as a deflection. Do it for the ENTIRE COMMUNITY that says the opposite. Yall try an discredit the players that say the negative but then deflect and make excuses when someone says prove it. Lmao, i swear "common sense aint that common" is the best quote EVER

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And I have provided my impressions of the video footage provided; giving example of possible reasons for what has been shown in videos. Thus, if you wish to continue to state that the coverage is bad, whatever that means, then it is on you to provide additional footage.

I have shown real life video of blown or bad coveraged to prove that it happens in real life and therefore should happen in game.

I have suggested that more animations may be required.

I have suggested that ratings need to be considered and the fact that any player can fail a dice roll or check and falter in coverage. This then reverts back to my suggestion that more animations are required.

I have suggested actually usering defensive players or altering assignments. Apparently people rather have a default defensive play work perfectly every snap and without pre-snap adjustments, which I have never seen happen in real life.

After all the work I have done to provide support for my positions, you rather continue to rest your position on the very same videos that others have provided and worked on.

Serious question - do you know how a Cover 4 pattern match zone works, and which adjustments can be made? I feel this is a relevant question because one should have some understanding of zone coverages before declaring them bad in a game.

Discredit? No, supplied opposing views and opinions is not to discredit.

Common sense? How you wish to define common sense? would it be common sense to not touch a hot burner on a stove? Common sense is gathered from experience. Hope you are not considering it to be something we are born with or without.

"Do it for the community"? This coming from the individual who outright refused to do any work without payment.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

That's what I'm rolling with currently. There are still a bunch of ugly blown coverages, but it doesn't seem to be as bad. Playing as the browns against the Panthers and both QBs are throwing around 80%, but there haven't been as many blown coverages by the safeties since I've changed the sliders. So maybe that's something to look at.



Still, it might be a fluke because the change isn't as drastic as it should be after maxing out the sliders, but I'll keep playing it to see if I can't pick up on consistencies/inconsistencies.

Both User and CPU coverages at 100?


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[bkrich83]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I just want to step in and answer a question I didn't see answered. 4th, you were asking how should we represent better cover corners vs worse ones on routes. I think the answer is pretty simple. A guy with higher man coverage should react quicker to the WR's breaks which will create tighter windows. The worse coverage guys will play looser coverage, reacting slower.

Most blown coverages should come from rubs, or route combinations that confuse zones and scheme guys wide open. You don't really see a lot of wide open blown coverages in man in real life unless a guy is rubbed, he slips, or he covers the wrong guy completely.

Or he gets smoked off press. See Keenan Allen vs. Orlando Scandrick week 1 in Los Angeles. Not really blown coverage but not competitive either.

https://youtu.be/Xj9bUCofl3I

Wouldn't let me embed it.

[engrishbwudd]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Both User and CPU coverages at 100?


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Correct.

/10Characters

[GoJags904]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Blaming you for the game? Not sure where you got that. I'm blaming you for adding nothing to the thread and derailing it. No one got bashed here for anything.

Posters like yourself are why OS gets a bad rep. Your lack of self awareness while becoming the norm here, is still sad.

I said im done. Me agreeing to someones post is bad, I get it. I will not agree with others on OS unless they praise the game.

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[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I see that we tend to look at something from a perfect eye, as it should be if done to perfection. How would this be the best way to judge something that involves generated results from dice roles? We would have to eliminate all rolls but the perfect role and that cannot be done as there has to be a win or a loss in this system.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

"Quote:
Originally Posted by canes21

I just want to step in and answer a question I didn't see answered. 4th, you were asking how should we represent better cover corners vs worse ones on routes. I think the answer is pretty simple. A guy with higher man coverage should react quicker to the WR's breaks which will create tighter windows. The worse coverage guys will play looser coverage, reacting slower.

Most blown coverages should come from rubs, or route combinations that confuse zones and scheme guys wide open. You don't really see a lot of wide open blown coverages in man in real life unless a guy is rubbed, he slips, or he covers the wrong guy completely."

I agree with your first part. The second part I agree that something has to happen for a blown coverage in man, but I believe it is more than the criteria outlined; A player can lose concentration on a play. Fails on a technical level that may be difficult to recover from.

[bkrich83]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I said im done. Me agreeing to someones post is bad, I get it. I will not agree with others on OS unless they praise the game.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Cool man. See ya!

[edgevoice]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I noticed coverage issues back in the Beta, many of what has been discussed and show thus-far in this post, and reported it. Zone coverage felt about the same during the trial as did the Beta, especially with poor awareness of Mike linebacker in Tampa 2. However, the wonkiness going on in Man Coverage now I did not experience as severely in the Beta. Many times it appeared as if the CB thought he should be covering a different receiver at the start of a play and then corrected his mistake, albeit way too late. At least man coverage DB's stopped freezing in the endzone, which was a welcome sight.

The problem with coverage is two-fold, since not only do loose, blown or dumbed down looking coverages show themselves, the fact that the ball trajectories have been vastly improved upon add further fuel to the fire.

When I am on defense in man coverage and manually assign leverages, they played pretty well. I didn't feel like I was getting unrealistically beat. However, I easily picked apart the CPU up and down the field when they were in man.

Corners get beat and blow assignments in the NFL every Sunday. I see it all the time. However, what I have experienced and witnessed with coverage regarding Madden 20 goes beyond that.

I'm not a game programmer, so I am not going to insult you good folks by telling you I know what's wrong. I trust what I am seeing and coverage needs serious help. If they address this and fix CPU end-of-game AI, I think it will be my favorite Madden edition ever made. If they don't, it just won't be playable for me.

[canes21]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

"Quote:
Originally Posted by canes21

I just want to step in and answer a question I didn't see answered. 4th, you were asking how should we represent better cover corners vs worse ones on routes. I think the answer is pretty simple. A guy with higher man coverage should react quicker to the WR's breaks which will create tighter windows. The worse coverage guys will play looser coverage, reacting slower.

Most blown coverages should come from rubs, or route combinations that confuse zones and scheme guys wide open. You don't really see a lot of wide open blown coverages in man in real life unless a guy is rubbed, he slips, or he covers the wrong guy completely."

I agree with your first part. The second part I agree that something has to happen for a blown coverage in man, but I believe it is more than the criteria outlined; A player can lose concentration on a play. Fails on a technical level that may be difficult to recover from.

You're not going to find a lot of man coverages that are blown in real life that don't involve the DB falling down, slipping, or suffering from injury. The only other scenario a man coverage play is blown in real life generally stems from motion causing confusion or a compressed formation or bunch formation causing a miscommunication. You don't see DBs breaking the wrong way in real life to cause a blown coverage. That just doesn't happen. If Madden is doing this on purpose to represent a blown coverage then it is a terribly implemented thing. I don't believe it's being done on purpose. I'm still of belief this is all a bug in coverage causing DBs to break the wrong way.

[khaliib]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

This is what happens when folks see these “Breakdown Madden” videos as templates to reveal some perceived issue.

These templates are so focused on proving an individuals point/perception that they “ALWAYS” lack presenting the needed details such as...
- gameplay setup (Play Style, Sliders)
- Ratings of the players involved
- def coverage called and/or off play being run

When I see any assertion without this information, I call it “Junk mail” and discard because these aspects impact what is going on in the game.

Even though Clint has put a lot of information is out there over the years dealing with the functionality of Player Ratings in relation to gameplay, I see in a lot of post/Tweets that a many individuals still don’t understand how ratings work in the game as it relates to what’s happing during gameplay.

Man, I miss the days of old where we did Deep Dives to understand the game.
But I also recognize the culture/mindset has shifted away from this a lot, but let’s try it here and see!!!

We know that Player Ratings have been stretched out and one of the main rating that has multiple uses and is a modifier upon other ratings is “AWR”.

I’ve always looked at the AWR rating as the “True” representative of how good/bad a player is because of how it’s used and it’s impact upon other ratings.

Even if a player has high positional ratings, if his AWR is low, he’s not going to perform to the level of those high positional ratings due to impact of the low AWR.

In Zone coverage for AI, (per Clint) AWR impacts “how much” of their Zone they are capable of covering and “how fast” they can recognize threats going in/out of their zone.

So as you look at the Zone artwork, the larger the zones coverage area (deep 1/2, 3rds, hooks etc...), the higher that players AWR would need to be to encompass the entire radius of that zone (ie 95+ AWR DB/LB’s)

Although the artwork may suggest that flats are smaller areas of coverage, they follow the same rule above.

ZCV triggers the defenders “reaction” to a Pass within...
1) the Release of Ball from QB hand
and/or
2) the Throw Motion of the QB

To get a glimps of how good/bad a player may be in Zone Coverage, you have to look at their...
1) AWR (how Impactful they’ll be within their zone responsibility)
2) ZCV (Break on Ball)
3) AGL (how instant the Change-of-Direction will be)

When these are not as high (again on a spread out scale), the game inputs a delay on the AI reaction as a way of producing “Player Differentiation”
- they delay in recognizing the threat entering their zone responsibility
- they break way after the release of the ball
- they take longer to change direction to cover the ball and/or player


MCV is basically the “Relative Distance” each player will maintain until the ball is caught.

To see how good a player will be on Man Coverage calls, you have to look at their...
1) AWR (impacting how quick to react to WR cuts and AGL to maintain the relative distance)
2) AGL (impact on how much delay is imposed on the Change of Direction to the cut move)
3) ZCV (break on Ball)
4) MCV (Relative Distance defender can maintain)

Until you grasp how they use the ratings in their game, seeing the context and it’s application during a Play will be difficult.

Also, folks lose sight that the dev team is utilizing the feedback from the “Experts” (NFL head coach, Positional coach’s, players etc...) to provide context to what happens during gameplay.

Granted there are “bugs” that can cause issues, but not everything is a bug or broke because we may not agree with the outcome because some aspects of the gameplay has to be “hard coded” for functionality purposes and context to the larger picture.

Every DB/LB gets beat on “every” pass play because the Route Runner knows what/where he’s suppose to do and the cover guy doesn’t.

So this ideology that the AI player isn’t performing the coverage and/or concept “perfectly” according to the definition, is typical of a “Arm Chair” individual/fan that really believes perfection is something that actually exist in football.
(a direct quote from an NFL DB coach to get me to loosen up during my FA tryout with the Charges years ago)

As one poster asked earlier, if these clips are the evidence of “Broken”, how do they go about producing an avg or bad player within the constructs of the Madden game build?

A lot of this doesn’t look broke to me, but everyone is different in what they want to see, so in the end, there’s really not a right/wrong I guess.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

*Duplicate post*

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[QUOTE=TheGentlemanGhost;2049848329]One thing I’m noticing is that the short slant plays are a lot easier because the trajectory and now LBs aren’t as great at coverage as they were before, it’s all on the DB now. Before, 9/10 times if you weren’t completely the slant, it was b/c the LB was playing the middle. Now that they been made a bit more realistic with how well they cover, the DBs play on slants haven’t improved.

I ran the same slant a good 5 times in a row and got the same result. So basically they fixed LB coverage from being too routine and always so good but didn’t adjust the DB play to make up for it in this particular case.

My fault, somehow I quoted and duplicated my last post instead of editing it.