Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[xCoachDx]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

This is what happens when folks see these “Breakdown Madden” videos as templates to reveal some perceived issue.

These templates are so focused on proving an individuals point/perception that they “ALWAYS” lack presenting the needed details such as...
- gameplay setup (Play Style, Sliders)
- Ratings of the players involved
- def coverage called and/or off play being run

When I see any assertion without this information, I call it “Junk mail” and discard because these aspects impact what is going on in the game.

Even though Clint has put a lot of information is out there over the years dealing with the functionality of Player Ratings in relation to gameplay, I see in a lot of post/Tweets that a many individuals still don’t understand how ratings work in the game as it relates to what’s happing during gameplay.

Man, I miss the days of old where we did Deep Dives to understand the game.
But I also recognize the culture/mindset has shifted away from this a lot, but let’s try it here and see!!!

We know that Player Ratings have been stretched out and one of the main rating that has multiple uses and is a modifier upon other ratings is “AWR”.

I’ve always looked at the AWR rating as the “True” representative of how good/bad a player is because of how it’s used and it’s impact upon other ratings.

Even if a player has high positional ratings, if his AWR is low, he’s not going to perform to the level of those high positional ratings due to impact of the low AWR.

In Zone coverage for AI, (per Clint) AWR impacts “how much” of their Zone they are capable of covering and “how fast” they can recognize threats going in/out of their zone.

So as you look at the Zone artwork, the larger the zones coverage area (deep 1/2, 3rds, hooks etc...), the higher that players AWR would need to be to encompass the entire radius of that zone (ie 95+ AWR DB/LB’s)

Although the artwork may suggest that flats are smaller areas of coverage, they follow the same rule above.

ZCV triggers the defenders “reaction” to a Pass within...
1) the Release of Ball from QB hand
and/or
2) the Throw Motion of the QB

To get a glimps of how good/bad a player may be in Zone Coverage, you have to look at their...
1) AWR (how Impactful they’ll be within their zone responsibility)
2) ZCV (Break on Ball)
3) AGL (how instant the Change-of-Direction will be)

When these are not as high (again on a spread out scale), the game inputs a delay on the AI reaction as a way of producing “Player Differentiation”
- they delay in recognizing the threat entering their zone responsibility
- they break way after the release of the ball
- they take longer to change direction to cover the ball and/or player


MCV is basically the “Relative Distance” each player will maintain until the ball is caught.

To see how good a player will be on Man Coverage calls, you have to look at their...
1) AWR (impacting how quick to react to WR cuts and AGL to maintain the relative distance)
2) AGL (impact on how much delay is imposed on the Change of Direction to the cut move)
3) ZCV (break on Ball)
4) MCV (Relative Distance defender can maintain)

Until you grasp how they use the ratings in their game, seeing the context and it’s application during a Play will be difficult.

Also, folks lose sight that the dev team is utilizing the feedback from the “Experts” (NFL head coach, Positional coach’s, players etc...) to provide context to what happens during gameplay.

Granted there are “bugs” that can cause issues, but not everything is a bug or broke because we may not agree with the outcome because some aspects of the gameplay has to be “hard coded” for functionality purposes and context to the larger picture.

Every DB/LB gets beat on “every” pass play because the Route Runner knows what/where he’s suppose to do and the cover guy doesn’t.

So this ideology that the AI player isn’t performing the coverage and/or concept “perfectly” according to the definition, is typical of a “Arm Chair” individual/fan that really believes perfection is something that actually exist in football.
(a direct quote from an NFL DB coach to get me to loosen up during my FA tryout with the Charges years ago)

As one poster asked earlier, if these clips are the evidence of “Broken”, how do they go about producing an avg or bad player within the constructs of the Madden game build?

A lot of this doesn’t look broke to me, but everyone is different in what they want to see, so in the end, there’s really not a right/wrong I guess.

If a DB needs a certain rating before it can recognize that the ball was thrown a full second ago and should stop backpedaling and pursue it, something is wrong.

If a DB needs a certain rating to keep him from taking an extra 4-5 steps out of his backpedal after his man has completely stopped moving, something is wrong.

If a DB needs a certain rating to understand that 25 yards is too much cushion for a receiver, something is wrong.

Whatever EA is aiming to accomplish in pass coverage, they aren’t doing it well at the moment. It needs fixed quickly.


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[openureyez]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

As expected, they absolutely butchered this game in comparison to what we got in the beta. The beta was perfect, and they dialed the defense down significantly because the competitive crowd was complaining. Now the defense is arguably worse than it's been in the last several years. Specifically the AI defense, which is pathetic even when turning up the sliders.

Maybe I am imagining things but I thought the defense in the beta was much better too. You don’t usually see guys running this wide open in the NFL

[khaliib]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

If a DB needs a certain rating before it can recognize that the ball was thrown a full second ago and should stop backpedaling and pursue it, something is wrong.

If a DB needs a certain rating to keep him from taking an extra 4-5 steps out of his backpedal after his man has completely stopped moving, something is wrong.

If a DB needs a certain rating to understand that 25 yards is too much cushion for a receiver, something is wrong.

Whatever EA is aiming to accomplish in pass coverage, they aren’t doing it well at the moment. It needs fixed quickly.


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This is the typical response which leans mostly on just your perception and not the functionality of the mechanism(s).
- two different things

The 2nd thing is why must folks post “exaggerated” notations?
- 4-5 extra steps (previously its been backpedal 20+ yrds and/or an inta-turn, so I’ll take this)
- 25 yrd cushions

Simply disagreeing what/how mechanisms are used within the game doesn’t make it broken and exaggerations to me are just jab shots at EA/Madden.

My point was that the details in a lot of these blanket assertions, are missing and may provide the explanation and/or context as to why something is playing out that is being called out as broken.

Things can be tuned, but if we don’t understand the functionality of whatever mechanisms driving what we’re seeing, just saying it’s broken is useless to the dev team and is a driving reason why Sim Play Style received significantly less gameplay tuning compared the Comp Play Style.

So back to the question, how can they produce Player Differentiation between coverage levels of bad, avg, starters, Superstar/X-Factor?

[GameBreaker35]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I’m surprised to read that there are actually people in this thread that believe that the videos of defenders in man coverage breaking in the opposite direction of receivers are a design choice for “loss” scenarios.

They’re not, guys. This is a bug or flaw that has just been introduced this title.

To make this point clearer, I’m posting Madden 19 footage of the same plays I posted yesterday in Madden 20. Look at how the defenders react a cover the receivers in the previous titles. They generate losses in 19 without the odd behavior that you find in 20 currently.

https://youtu.be/5vpYklwnYrY

https://youtu.be/AYkMOFKVcUI

https://youtu.be/c-lzXFD1CfI

EDIT 2: Videos Re-uploaded.


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[GameBreaker35]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Deleted after correcting previous post.

[xCoachDx]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

This is the typical response which leans mostly on just your perception and not the functionality of the mechanism(s).

- two different things



The 2nd thing is why must folks post “exaggerated” notations?

- 4-5 extra steps (previously its been backpedal 20+ yrds and/or an inta-turn, so I’ll take this)

- 25 yrd cushions



Simply disagreeing what/how mechanisms are used within the game doesn’t make it broken and exaggerations to me are just jab shots at EA/Madden.



My point was that the details in a lot of these blanket assertions, are missing and may provide the explanation and/or context as to why something is playing out that is being called out as broken.



Things can be tuned, but if we don’t understand the functionality of whatever mechanisms driving what we’re seeing, just saying it’s broken is useless to the dev team and is a driving reason why Sim Play Style received significantly less gameplay tuning compared the Comp Play Style.



So back to the question, how can they produce Player Differentiation between coverage levels of bad, avg, starters, Superstar/X-Factor?

Exaggerations? I literally just posted two clips where those two things happened. Not sure how that’s exaggerating unless I’m missing your point.


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

The defensive play is just all around weird. Just threw a pass into triple coverage with the 49ers and it just landed perfectly (aside from the phasing issues that should’ve caused a tip at least). But apart from that the defense is just not reacting like they typically do in a lot of areas which seem to be causing too many big plays. It’s never been this easy throwing down field. It’s my 1st game not using the Viks who have two 95 ovr receivers. This does have to tighten up.

I’m using the 100 pass react and coverage sliders too on All-Pro. Unfortunately the game recorder isn’t working on PC with M20 for some reason. Just ran Quick Slants for two series all drive down the field. They just are not reacting at all.


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[xCoachDx]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

The defensive play is just all around weird. Just threw a pass into triple coverage with the 49ers and it just landed perfectly (aside from the phasing issues that should’ve caused a tip at least). But apart from that the defense is just not reacting like they typically do in a lot of areas which seem to be causing too many big plays. It’s never been this easy throwing down field. It’s my 1st game not using the Viks who have two 95 ovr receivers. This does have to tighten up.

I’m using the 100 pass react and coverage sliders too on All-Pro. Unfortunately the game recorder isn’t working on PC with M20 for some reason.


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I played one game of this before my trial time ran out. Both QB’s completed 75% with the CPU missing mainly on chuck and prays downfield.


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[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I played one game of this before my trial time ran out. Both QB’s completed 75% with the CPU missing mainly on chuck and prays downfield.


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Just edited the post, but have been only running quick slants and marching downfield. Even when they are covered which is rare, the defense doesn’t react. Using 49ers and the backups are playing the same way.

Let’s see what happens in all-Madden, but all-Pro has never felt like this.

*edit*
Just did the same thing in all Madden with coverage & reaction at 100. Quick slants all the way down field for the TD. I recommend everyone to check this out. But in the past, LBs were always the factor with incompletions for this route most times, so I see why it’s happening now. But it also proves that DB coverage in general is in fact broken.


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[edgevoice]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Just edited the post, but have been only running quick slants and marching downfield. Even when they are covered which is rare, the defense doesn’t react. Using 49ers and the backups are playing the same way.

Let’s see what happens in all-Madden, but all-Pro has never felt like this.

*edit*
Just did the same thing in all Madden with coverage & reaction at 100. Quick slants all the way down field for the TD. I recommend everyone to check this out. But in the past, LBs were always the factor with incompletions for this route most times, so I see why it’s happening now. But it also proves that DB coverage in general is in fact broken.


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Madden, like many games, seldom releases OOTB without some issues. While it may take them some time, I have faith EA will make whatever necessary corrections that are needed. There are just too many community respected, responsible and reputable folks uploading videos pointing out time and time again similar coverage problems for them to ignore it.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Madden, like many games, seldom releases OOTB without some issues. While it may take them some time, I have faith EA will make whatever necessary corrections that are needed. There are just too many community respected, responsible and reputable folks uploading videos pointing out time and time again similar coverage problems for them to ignore it.

Yeah, I’m still getting it since I have PC and the modders were incredible. Just don’t know if I’ll get it ASAP. I’m glad LBs were kinda nerfed in coverage but not to this extent plus DBs do need to react better. I believe the devs will get to it but it is great to have a second line of defense now with the modding community lol.

[Jimbo12308]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I’m using the 100 pass react and coverage sliders too on All-Pro. Unfortunately the game recorder isn’t working on PC with M20 for some reason. Just ran Quick Slants for two series all drive down the field. They just are not reacting at all.

I’m not sure if this has been discussed already or if I’m misinformed, but last year for M19 there were some sliders builders who were convinced that reaction time is reversed (0 is better for the defense, 100 is worse). Again, I’m not entirely certain if it was actually true or if it’s been confirmed one way or the other for M20, but apparently it was debatable in M19. Anyone try coverage at 100 and reaction time at 0?

Also, I know nobody really wants this solution: but something I did last year to reduce completion percentages and lower the power of the passing game was reduce the pass catching slider pretty dramatically. It’s unrealistic and sometimes very annoying to have wide out receivers drop pass after pass, but it did help bring more realistic completion percentages and a more balanced game between the offense and defense.

[D13]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

The devs arent going to do anything to try and fix it, most thier team have moved over to MUT and work on that stuff now, if you aint talking MUT and buying packs, youre no good to them.

[bkrich83]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

The devs arent going to do anything to try and fix it, most thier team have moved over to MUT and work on that stuff now, if you aint talking MUT and buying packs, youre no good to them.

Based on what? You know the inner workings of the Dev team?


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[mooch49]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

These are videos from Madden 19 Revival Mod by Sabo showing pass coverage. It's not perfect. But it's significantly better than what 20 is at the moment. Hopefully it can be duplicated once the new Frosty Editor comes out. If so, M20 has the potential to be the best Madden ever. Right now it's pretty darn good. With some tweaks, sky is the limit.

https://youtu.be/wZ9-O7oLGro

https://youtu.be/ZI8xK4CTpas

https://youtu.be/O7R8S7GiyIM

https://youtu.be/GzG7W6u1Ns0