Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

That's not at all what he said.

Then why did he just say “I’m not willing to jump on the patching bandwagon”. Let him speak for himself. I can read between the lines lol. There’d be no need to debate the opposite if he was for a patch.

In which I completely disagree 4thqtr, NOW, we can wait for some slider adjustments. But I got a strong feeling this’ll need a patch to get addressed.

[mtmetcalfe]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

"needs to be." <- That is what I am attempting to ascertain. Is this issue a necessity? The risk of a patch that could break another part of the game pushes me to a zone of caution.

Granted I am not making any decisions on changes; I am merely taking an opposing view of the situation because I feel if we all agreed on something, created an echo chamber, the results could be less than satisfactory.

Devil's Advocate.

This is a very valid point. We should definitely monitor it and keeping leaving feedback. It would be nice to hear something from the devs next week on the issue.

And I hate echo chambers also so much appreciated on your clarification.

[kehlis]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Then why did he just say “I’m not willing to jump on the patching bandwagon”. Let him speak for himself. I can read between the lines lol. There’d be no need to debate the opposite if he was for a patch.

I'm not speaking for him.

His post was literally about taking control of a defender and you starting talking about having to call offensive plays with specific routes.

That's why I bolded that particular sentence....

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Then why did he just say “I’m not willing to jump on the patching bandwagon”. Let him speak for himself. I can read between the lines lol. There’d be no need to debate the opposite if he was for a patch.

In which I completely disagree 4thqtr, NOW, we can wait for some slider adjustments. But I got a strong feeling this’ll need a patch to get addressed.

YOur question was: "Are you seriously saying instead of getting it patched, we should just start calling plays that don’t have specific routes???"

I am not saying that in any manner. I am saying we need a larger sample size. But in the meantime, as I am sure EA is looking into the issue presented here, players can call other plays.

I suspect EA will drop a day 1 or week 1 patch. EA may wait for a couple weeks as more data can be compiled. EA, like me and some others, just rather take a more step-by-step approach to perceived issues rather than jumping all in and potentially crreating a greater mess.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I'm not speaking for him.



His post was literally about taking control of a defender and you starting talking about having to call offensive plays with specific routes.



That's why I bolded that particular sentence....

Ummm...he said, “If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI.”

He listed his ways to avoid it both playing on defense and against the cpu. So we disagree on not patching and remedy. It’s a done deal lol.

[bkrich83]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

So I just played a pre season game in a test CFM. This time really paying attention to coverage. Some plays the coverage is played brilliantly and some plays I don’t know what’s going on. It’s super inconsistent. Safety leverage/depth is sometimes spot on, and sometimes they keep way too much depth. Defensive player reactions are just as inconsistent.

I’m even more confused as to whether we have some logic issues or this is how they are representing coverages getting beat. I suspect it’s a little bit of both.


Sent from my iPad using Operation Sports

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

define "Consistently good coverage." I can probably find a number of NFL film clips of bad coverage. Do you not believe bad coverage should be in Madden?

Who should we use as a defender to define good coverage to use as or base line in these tests? Who should be considered a bad coverage player so we can use as a comparison?

I offered you 2 Pro players of Madden football to watch. You decline both due to your perception of how they play the game in relation to how you play and desire Madden to perform. So I will need a little more input into what you are looking for in coverages.

Patrick Peterson?
Xavier Rhodes?

Who should we have as the target receiver?

Antonio Brown?
Odell Beckham?

What "basic elements" of pass coverage are not working? Man coverage is rather simple; if a defender fails to shadow a route, how do you wish to determine it was the AI as opposed to the Defender ratings?

Zone is a little more complex, especially if we get into pattern matching. What zone we want to test versus which type of offensive formation on route concept?

I feel you stress. But it's not occasional but coverage. The coverage is bad 95% of the time. Defensive backs just give the receivers way too much space. On 3 and 19 I as he defensive should have the offense scared and second guessing there play call. Right now I am the one who's scared of being in these 3rd and long situations because way too often the coverage complete breaks down giving the receiver way to much leeway and space. I'm glad you are likinghe game but the coverage is waaaaaayyyyy to soft right now

[kehlis]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Ummm...he said, “If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI.”

He listed his ways to avoid it both playing on defense and against the cpu. So we disagree on not patching and remedy. It’s a done deal lol.

Very fair. Missed that part.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

What exactly is wrong with any of these coverages? They all seem believable in their results.

I have seen a defender get turned around on a play as in your second video.

The third video looked as if the defender was playing in a deeper zone like a purple and the result of the play was a deep pass down the middle closer to where the defender you question is waiting.

The problem is it is happening way too often. Yes the nfl is an offense league but I want to be picked apart by the opposing quarterback and the CPU playcalling, not have my safety give 8-10 yards space to the receiver on underneath coverage and not to watch my cornerback run five yards in the opposite direction every time a 73 overall receiver makes a break on a route

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

So I just played a pre season game in a test CFM. This time really paying attention to coverage. Some plays the coverage is played brilliantly and some plays I don’t know what’s going on. It’s super inconsistent. Safety leverage/depth is sometimes spot on, and sometimes they keep way too much depth. Defensive player reactions are just as inconsistent.

I’m even more confused as to whether we have some logic issues or this is how they are representing coverages getting beat. I suspect it’s a little bit of both.


Sent from my iPad using Operation Sports

And I can agree with your position. I have seen great coverage, good coverage and bad coverage. But I also know I have great, good and bad defenders who are also going up against receivers who are great, good and bad.

At any moment even the best defender will fail, and vice-versa.

We have a limited number of animations to represent a great number of potential outcomes on field. All I need is to believe that the result could happen.

I have witnessed some major coverage flaws in the All-22 films I like to watch. The All-22 films really open up the viewer's world into what actually happens on any given play while the average viewer sees such a small section of the scrimmage line, offensive backfield, and immediate pass location.

But in Madden, we can observe everything. We can go into replay and scrutinize everything. And we tend to scrutinize with a perfect eye and fail to remember that there is no perfection. The game is trying to represent a lot of results at the same time. Some allowances for error might create a more enjoyable experience over fixating on a relatively small issue.

Just my 2 cents.

[Therebelyell626]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

So I just played a pre season game in a test CFM. This time really paying attention to coverage. Some plays the coverage is played brilliantly and some plays I don’t know what’s going on. It’s super inconsistent. Safety leverage/depth is sometimes spot on, and sometimes they keep way too much depth. Defensive player reactions are just as inconsistent.

I’m even more confused as to whether we have some logic issues or this is how they are representing coverages getting beat. I suspect it’s a little bit of both.


Sent from my iPad using Operation Sports

Interesting hypothesis rich. I think you may be on to something with maybe this is how they are trying to represent a break down in coverage. I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with this if it was a 50/50 thing but right now it seems to be leaning more towards the 75/25 side of things and it's not very subtle.

I think we can all agree however that the majority of time guys should be getting shamed open instead of blown coverage causing it though

Edit: schemed* not shamed. The auto correct can be brutal on this sight sometimes

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I feel you stress. But it's not occasional but coverage. The coverage is bad 95% of the time. Defensive backs just give the receivers way too much space. On 3 and 19 I as he defensive should have the offense scared and second guessing there play call. Right now I am the one who's scared of being in these 3rd and long situations because way too often the coverage complete breaks down giving the receiver way to much leeway and space. I'm glad you are likinghe game but the coverage is waaaaaayyyyy to soft right now

Defenders giving too much space. I understand your point. But then I have to wonder about game difficulty and game type (competitive, sim, etc) and game mode (CFM, MUT, QB1, Play Now). The game seems to play different in each area.

So having soft coverage being too soft needs a little more context. Obvioulsy I think we all agree coverage should be soft on rookie mode. But then we have the other modes. Then with each mode we need to differentiate coverages by a rookie, or all-Pro corner, or a backup, etc.

That seems to be a lot of programming variables that need to be covered.

And yes, if a large smaple size states that there is a consistent, unentended, issue with a coverage type, then lets hope a patch is created and nothing else in game is damaged.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Very fair. Missed that part.

Just to clarify my comment: “If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI.”


^^ I injected this part because over the years of following and participating in slider modifications there was always an accepted list of house rules that were attached to slider changes to allow for the best gaming experience. These were never considered outlandish requests so I didn't expect my suggestion of using different plays to be taken with such surprise.

My comment, in this case, was with this tradition in mind.

You were correct in identifying my main point of usering a defender. I feel EA wants the consumer to partake on both sides of the ball. To do so, there would have to be things for the consumer to do, such as passing the ball on offense and maybe controlling a defender to cover a slant route which has been a very consistent play route in every Madden I can recall, and so on.

I feel the days of watching the CPU handle the action on the field with the consumer being just a coach is a thing of the past to never be resurrected.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Just to clarify my comment: “If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI.”


^^ I injected this part because over the years of following and participating in slider modifications there was always an accepted list of house rules that were attached to slider changes to allow for the best gaming experience. These were never considered outlandish requests so I didn't expect my suggestion of using different plays to be taken with such surprise.

My comment, in this case, was with this tradition in mind.

You were correct in identifying my main point of usering a defender. I feel EA wants the consumer to partake on both sides of the ball. To do so, there would have to be things for the consumer to do, such as passing the ball on offense and maybe controlling a defender to cover a slant route which has been a very consistent play route in every Madden I can recall, and so on.

I feel the days of watching the CPU handle the action on the field with the consumer being just a coach is a thing of the past to never be resurrected.

But you are speaking from a H2H/online perspective, right? Madden knows that a large part of their audience plays CFM, I can see them holding off features for CFM for whatever reason. But I can’t see them intentionally dumbing down the CPU so H2H guys start playing more D while it drastically alienates offline/CFM players experience...at least I’d hope not. But even if you are right, they should make that a difference in using competitive and sim modes.

Was this an issue that got addressed last year? I played with mods that fixed a lot of problems so I’m not sure.

[openureyez]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I feel you stress. But it's not occasional but coverage. The coverage is bad 95% of the time. Defensive backs just give the receivers way too much space. On 3 and 19 I as he defensive should have the offense scared and second guessing there play call. Right now I am the one who's scared of being in these 3rd and long situations because way too often the coverage complete breaks down giving the receiver way to much leeway and space. I'm glad you are likinghe game but the coverage is waaaaaayyyyy to soft right now

3rd and 19 is easy money for the offense. That’s *** backwards