Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

[xCoachDx]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

define "Consistently good coverage." I can probably find a number of NFL film clips of bad coverage. Do you not believe bad coverage should be in Madden?



Who should we use as a defender to define good coverage to use as or base line in these tests? Who should be considered a bad coverage player so we can use as a comparison?



I offered you 2 Pro players of Madden football to watch. You decline both due to your perception of how they play the game in relation to how you play and desire Madden to perform. So I will need a little more input into what you are looking for in coverages.



Patrick Peterson?

Xavier Rhodes?



Who should we have as the target receiver?



Antonio Brown?

Odell Beckham?



What "basic elements" of pass coverage are not working? Man coverage is rather simple; if a defender fails to shadow a route, how do you wish to determine it was the AI as opposed to the Defender ratings?



Zone is a little more complex, especially if we get into pattern matching. What zone we want to test versus which type of offensive formation on route concept?

Okay, bro, there are clear examples of players not covering people in their zones, still being in a backpedal when the ball is halfway to the receiver, spinning around for no reason in man coverage, the problems are right there. It has nothing to do with the fact that there is occasional bad coverage in real life. If we’re using real life as the true standard than this game is even further off from where it needs to be. I’ve never seen an NFL corner covering a slant route, and two steps after the receiver cuts, turn and do a pirouette to change direction and allow 5-10 yards of separation.

Safeties play too deep in their blue zones and stay in a backpedal long after the ball is thrown. Linebackers often do absolutely nothing in hook zones and allow receivers to run right by them. Corners doing what was explained above. That’s what we mean by “bad coverage” in the game.


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[UltraHD]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Upsetting to see things like this. Especially with the same excuses EA seem to produce of "we just didn't have the time". Lol, I am pretty sure they did have the time, they just decided to neglect it in favour of modes that will yield them the most money like Ultimate Team. Shame on them.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

No more defenders unrealistically running five or ten yards in the wrong direction for starters. I see you said "defenders get turned around in real life," to which I will reply, "Yeah, for one or two yards, not five or ten, and they only have their back to the wr for about .5 seconds, not 5 seconds."





Also, if they want to get more serious, no more linebackers and safeties in zone coverage in the red zone auto-shading to the outside when a cornerback is in between them and the sideline. In the red zone, you defend INSIDE to OUTSIDE. That is a basic football fundamental, but Madden as of today seems to flare out toward the sidelines and allow easy access to the middle.

Antonio Brown breaks some ankles. I agree there should be no auto-shading. I have found Madden did a good job making passes to the middle difficult in the red-zone.

Anyway, here is Antonio Brown video getting 5 or more yards separation in some cases by torching defenders.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10156282617691263

I think the difficult part of the game is having such an expansive list of attributes and a relatively small sample of animations to cover all the potential outcomes. Some "loss" results may look a little wonky, IMO.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Okay, bro, there are clear examples of players not covering people in their zones, still being in a backpedal when the ball is halfway to the receiver, spinning around for no reason in man coverage, the problems are right there. It has nothing to do with the fact that there is occasional bad coverage in real life. If we’re using real life as the true standard than this game is even further off from where it needs to be. I’ve never seen an NFL corner covering a slant route, and two steps after the receiver cuts, turn and do a pirouette to change direction and allow 5-10 yards of separation.

Safeties play too deep in their blue zones and stay in a backpedal long after the ball is thrown. Linebackers often do absolutely nothing in hook zones and allow receivers to run right by them. Corners doing what was explained above. That’s what we mean by “bad coverage” in the game.


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Slant route creating major separation. Top route runner in video

https://twitter.com/ConnorNFLDraft/status/1060920439835451392

But my point is, there is a difference between bad coverage on a player because a defender lost the numbers battle, as in Madden, and a truly bad coverage issue due completely to an issue with programming.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Slant route creating major separation. Top route runner in video



https://twitter.com/ConnorNFLDraft/s...20439835451392

Are you saying you don’t want constantly bad coverage of certain routes patched or what? I’m able to use certain plays and it feels guaranteed the DBs are going to do the same missteps. That’s an issue. The only thing that stops a lot of these routes from being successful is d line pressure, additional LB coverage or missed throws. But I’m see the same cushion in certain routes far too often.


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[xCoachDx]

Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Slant route creating major separation. Top route runner in video

https://twitter.com/ConnorNFLDraft/status/1060920439835451392

But my point is, there is a difference between bad coverage on a player because a defender lost the numbers battle, as in Madden, and a truly bad coverage issue due completely to an issue with programming.

The difference between that clip and in Madden is that the DB recognized immediately that he went the wrong direction and tried to catch up. In Madden, the defender is changing direction SIGNIFICANTLY after the receiver makes his cut. Really no idea how you can say that video and what multiple people are saying are the same thing.


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[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Are you saying you don’t want constantly bad coverage of certain routes patched or what? I’m able to use certain plays and it feels guaranteed the DBs are going to do the same missteps. That’s an issue.


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Depends on what all is involved.

I prefer the user taking steps to cover the hole in any coverages by controlling the appropriate defender. Or calling a different play.

If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI. (A hole in AI would be the same result regardless of how many times the same coverage is run against a collection of offensive plays, not the same offensive play versus same defensive play over and over).

[mooch49]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

What exactly is wrong with any of these coverages? They all seem believable in their results.

I have seen a defender get turned around on a play as in your second video.

The third video looked as if the defender was playing in a deeper zone like a purple and the result of the play was a deep pass down the middle closer to where the defender you question is waiting.

Your right. I watched them over again, and the coverages were about what they should be. I guess in the 3rd video, the circling of the defender. But he was covering that area of the zone. I guess reading all these negative comments, I had to find something wrong even though there really wasn't.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

The difference between that clip and in Madden is that the DB recognized immediately that he went the wrong direction and tried to catch up. In Madden, the defender is changing direction SIGNIFICANTLY after the receiver makes his cut. Really no idea how you can say that video and what multiple people are saying are the same thing.


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I realize one is real life and the other is a game attempting to add in some semblance of real life. I also know that patching games can lead to very nasty side effects, so if there is a way the user can avoid an issue, then that could probably be the best solution.

I still would like to know how different rated CBs should respond to a particular play, such as a slant? And if they fail the dice roll check what is a proper visual result that would prevent people from complaining about poor coverage or AI?

[mtmetcalfe]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI. (A hole in AI would be the same result regardless of how many times the same coverage is run against a collection of offensive plays, not the same offensive play versus same defensive play over and over).

I’m not quite sure why this is a hill you want to die on? With this reasoning why improve or fix anything that needs to be? Just run a different play.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Your right. I watched them over again, and the coverages were about what they should be. I guess in the 3rd video, the circling of the defender. But he was covering that area of the zone. I guess reading all these negative comments, I had to find something wrong even though there really wasn't.

Thank you. Though I am not sure I am correct. I just ask myself, is the result I am seeing in Madden something I could envision happening in real life. In most cases, the answer is yes.

Now I have concern about the events that consistently happen. Such as a CB consistently being faked out on a Zig route while in Man coverage. But then I wish to see this route run from different formations by the offense while the defense runs a variety of Man defenses just to see if the event in question is consistently represented over a larger sample size.

[TheGentlemanGhost]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Depends on what all is involved.



I prefer the user taking steps to cover the hole in any coverages by controlling the appropriate defender. Or calling a different play.



If playing the CPU and wanting a fair game, I wouldn't call offensive plays which I know exploit holes in the Defensive AI. (A hole in AI would be the same result regardless of how many times the same coverage is run against a collection of offensive plays, not the same offensive play versus same defensive play over and over).

Wait, what!? Are you seriously saying instead of getting it patched, we should just start calling plays that don’t have specific routes??? LOL I play CFM, so I can’t control the AI. Cmon man, you are really starting to sound like one of those guys where Madden can just do no wrong. I don’t know if it’s that or your just another competitive/H2H player that doesn’t even play cpu games often. But this needs to be patched, plain and simple.

I’m sure the devs will fix it, they usually get to these kind of issues nowadays. Shouldn’t be a huge deal for them per usual.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

I’m not quite sure why this is a hill you want to die on? With this reasoning why improve or fix anything that needs to be? Just run a different play.

"needs to be." <- That is what I am attempting to ascertain. Is this issue a necessity? The risk of a patch that could break another part of the game pushes me to a zone of caution.

Granted I am not making any decisions on changes; I am merely taking an opposing view of the situation because I feel if we all agreed on something, created an echo chamber, the results could be less than satisfactory.

Devil's Advocate.

[kehlis]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Wait, what!? Are you seriously saying instead of getting it patched, we should just start calling plays that don’t have specific routes??? LOL I play CFM, so I can’t control the AI. Cmon man, you are really starting to sound like one of those guys where Madden can just do no wrong. I don’t know if it’s that or your just another competitive/H2H player that doesn’t even play cpu games often. But this needs to be patched, plain and simple.

I’m sure the devs will fix it, they usually get to these kind of issues nowadays. Shouldn’t be a huge deal for them per usual.

That's not at all what he said.

[4thQtrStre5S]

Re: Pass Coverage is STILL so broken

Wait, what!? Are you seriously saying instead of getting it patched, we should just start calling plays that don’t have specific routes??? LOL I play CFM, so I can’t control the AI. Cmon man, you are really starting to sound like one of those guys where Madden can just do no wrong. I don’t know if it’s that or your just another competitive/H2H player that doesn’t even play cpu games often. But this needs to be patched, plain and simple.

I’m sure the devs will fix it, they usually get to these kind of issues nowadays. Shouldn’t be a huge deal for them per usual.

I am saying, at this point, we have a rather small sample size. I am proposing that dice roll losses may be a part of what is being seen on screen.

I am stating that a consistent result in a particular coverage, in this case Man coverage against Zig types routes, is definitely something to investigate further. I am just not willing to jump on the patching bandwagon based on a couple videos because patches can mess things up to a greater degree.