Is madden building on a broken foundation?

[BezO]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

IMO, yes, Madden is building on a broken foundation. But I also feel opinions vary with preference and how deep a gamer's football knowledge goes.

Is the defense completely broken? Depends who you ask. Ask the guy that doesn't know how a coordinator constructs schemes each play and the answer may be no. Ask the guy that knows coverages, stunts & blitzes are called separately in a complimentary way, and the answer is yes, it's broken.

IMO, Madden has programming that is not based on football knowledge. Defensive fronts are a combination of gap assignments, contain assignments & reads. Many of us can see that defenders are not assigned to gaps. We all know that defenders have no contain assignments unless you call a limited number of plays. And most of us can see that d-linemen head towards the o-lineman assigned to block them instead of reading or playing a gap. So, is it broken?

Do you know the goal of a stunt? Are stunts broken in Madden?

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Isn't that a little backwards? "Don't believe your eyes, better to believe what [someone's] telling you". There hasn't been a year where Pastapadre hasn't talked of Madden in positive terms, even '06 which had practically no redeeming qualities outside of the bump up in graphics. While he may have gotten a bit more critical I wouldn't trust his word (or anyone else's) as gospel. People should allow that these are works in progress, relative to their release date

I agree with this to a point.

I think that people should feel free to form opinions from videos, good or bad. Everyone does it. I also believe though that people should also read all of the information that is available for the game, and in conjunction with the videos, make an informed opinion.

If you know all of the changes that are planned for the new Madden, you know better what to look for in the vids to see if they really make a difference. Take the collision system. If you didn't know that they proclaimed to have eliminated suction, is that something that you would really notice being absent from a Madden 12 video? Highly doubt it.

I'm not saying to believe, or not believe all of their press releases, but if you know what they are claiming to have accomplished, it makes it easier to tell through videos whether they succeeded or not.

To me, that's an important component of making an informed decision.

[Icarus2k9]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

IMO, yes, Madden is building on a broken foundation. But I also feel opinions vary with preference and how deep a gamer's football knowledge goes.

Is the defense completely broken? Depends who you ask. Ask the guy that doesn't know how a coordinator constructs schemes each play and the answer may be no. Ask the guy that knows coverages, stunts & blitzes are called separately in a complimentary way, and the answer is yes, it's broken.

This is a good point. I'll admit my NFL knowledge will always be fundamentally poor as a Brit. I've watched it on TV for a decade now and get a feel for good play or good players, but couldn't tell you about the ebb and flow of playcalling or a million and one other things.

I can appreciate from you all here that there are a lot of issues with the game and the ones I spot annoy me because, well, if I spot them then they must be bad (I'm thinking the line interaction more than anything).

But despite my emotions going up and down constantly over these games, they are making proper strides year on year to scrap those broken elements and bring in stuff that works. I'm hoping the massive Offline Franchise overhaul will help me ignore any of the bad stuff that still crops up and let me enjoy this game for a long time.

Meanwhile, everyone on here who actually knows what's going on, please keep pointing out what needs to be done on my ignorant behalf and avoid just simple bashing. I can appreciate a proper discussion on whether the foundations of Madden are antiquidated to the point of stupidity, but it doesn't really achieve anything apart from completely writing off a game (and it crops up weekly at least). But the threads on exactly how the LBs should be setting up in the run game, or how Madden needs to adjust ball trajectories and why and all this technical stuff? Bring it on

\end cautiously optimistic yet pointless ramble.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Did you click the link?

Pasta wrote one sentence of the whole article and EA supplied the factsheet. I disagree this article is about Pasta and more about him relaying the information. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to shoot the messenger.

Actually I didn't - but I'd still rely more on what I'm seeing than what Pastapadre or [a developer] is telling me I should see. While I'm positive they're making an attempt to resolve the game's issues - and always have - just because something appears on a fact sheet doesn't mean it's been implemented in the way it needs to be implemented. They've shown repeatedly over the years that what sounds good on paper doesn't necessarily translate well to actual gameplay.

[Broncos86]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Actually I didn't - but I'd still rely more on what I'm seeing than what Pastapadre or [a developer] is telling me I should see. While I'm positive they're making an attempt to resolve the game's issues - and always have - just because something appears on a fact sheet doesn't mean it's been implemented in the way it needs to be implemented. They've shown repeatedly over the years that what sounds good on paper doesn't necessarily translate well to actual gameplay.

And that's a fine attitude to take. However, some people contradict themselves. Some say they aren't going to praise Madden until they "see it for themselves." But they're sure quick to bash the living daylights out of the game based on feature lists, interviews, and videos.

If you're going to wait to play before you praise the game, you need to wait until you play before you bash the game.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The video with Brady at CB was done on what game setting again?... That's right All-Madden everyone including the devs will tell you that All-Madden makes every player play above their actual ratings. It truly is the setting where only speed matters.

[mojo6911]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The video with Brady at CB was done on what game setting again?... That's right All-Madden everyone including the devs will tell you that All-Madden makes every player play above their actual ratings. It truly is the setting where only speed matters.

That makes absolutely no sense at all. I'll see if you can figure out why.

[ryan36]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I don't know that much about football play design, but I know there's NOT any standing around, and nobody is left unblocked. I know that if a linebacker is standing still (i.e. his feet aren't moving), that's a problem. And basic.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Actually I didn't - but I'd still rely more on what I'm seeing than what Pastapadre or [a developer] is telling me I should see. While I'm positive they're making an attempt to resolve the game's issues - and always have - just because something appears on a fact sheet doesn't mean it's been implemented in the way it needs to be implemented. They've shown repeatedly over the years that what sounds good on paper doesn't necessarily translate well to actual gameplay.

That's fine, but most of your post was negative towards Pasta, which, looking back, I disagreed with because all he did was deliver the message. I noticed you did add developer in the post above, so, that's fine.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

If you're going to wait to play before you praise the game, you need to wait until you play before you bash the game.

I actually didn't praise or bash anything other than Pastapadre, and that was mainly because I feel there's been many times he's steered the community wrong when he's been one of the few to get early looks at the game over the years. I don't think anyone can dispute he's never seen Madden in a negative light, even in years when it was a really bad game by most accounts.

Overall I was just making the statement I'd be more likely to believe what my eyes were telling me versus what someone's telling me in print. It's not like Tiburon has been sitting on their hands not trying to address problems in the game over the years. Things like OL/DL interaction, running animations, tackling, commentary, presentation, etc. have all been issues they've attempted to address in previous years - all to varying degrees of failure/success. Just because a company says "this year we really fixed [some feature]" doesn't mean it's been resolved in a way most of us would be satisfied with.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I actually didn't praise or bash anything other than Pastapadre, and that was mainly because I feel there's been many times he's steered the community wrong when he's been one of the few to get early looks at the game over the years. I don't think anyone can dispute he's never seen Madden in a negative light, even in years when it was a really bad game by most accounts.

Sorry, I just beg to differ on your Pasta comments. I'm not a fan by no means, but last year he was highly critical of Madden, but he is overlooked when he is. Also, Ian and him went at it on Twitter for about a week regarding surprise onside kicks.

And if Pasta is pro-Madden, he isn't the only critic out there that is, either. In the end, it's best to be your own critic.

[Broncos86]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Sorry, I just beg to differ on your Pasta comments. I'm not a fan by no means, but last year he was highly critical of Madden, but he is overlooked when he is. Also, Ian and him went at it on Twitter for about a week regarding surprise onside kicks.

And if Pasta is pro-Madden, he isn't the only critic out there that is, either. In the end, it's best to be your own critic.

I remember this, Roadman is dead on. Pasta was critical last year. I wanted to find the exchange on Twitter, but searching anything on Twitter is a chore.

In the end, who cares what ANY reviewer says about Madden if you're going to wait to play it first? Who cares if he's "leading the community astray?" Let them make their own decisions. Like Roadman said, if Pasta is pro-Madden, so what? He's just a man with an opinion, running his own website.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

In the end, who cares what ANY reviewer says about Madden if you're going to wait to play it first? Who cares if he's "leading the community astray?" Let them make their own decisions. Like Roadman said, if Pasta is pro-Madden, so what? He's just a man with an opinion, running his own website.

First, I did nothing more than state my own opinion/reasoning. Second, I agree somewhat - but I do think part of the reason the game is in the state it's in is because those that are in positions of influence (including sites like IGN, Gamespot, etc.) never called the game out when it was really bad. Which imo would've resulted in us seeing more tangible improvements sooner, rather than where we are now - where it seems it's preferable to have low expectations so you don't come away disappointed. Coming full circle, when you cited a link to a Pastapadre article (that I didn't read) I was making a comment on his previous views on Madden over the years. And because I've seen many people placing links to his articles here, I feel he's had some influence - at least on this site. So I said why I think someone would place more faith in what they're seeing versus what they're being told they should see.

That's an entirely different discussion; don't want to sidetrack the thread of course. Regarding the game's foundation, while I don't know that it can be characterized as broken, it does seem to be extremely flawed. The game just seems to lack the identity it once had. They've had difficulty reconciling their desire to give people more precise control while implementing some sense of physics and it's presented an odd gameplay mix

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

IMO, yes, Madden is building on a broken foundation. But I also feel opinions vary with preference and how deep a gamer's football knowledge goes.

Is the defense completely broken? Depends who you ask. Ask the guy that doesn't know how a coordinator constructs schemes each play and the answer may be no. Ask the guy that knows coverages, stunts & blitzes are called separately in a complimentary way, and the answer is yes, it's broken.

IMO, Madden has programming that is not based on football knowledge. Defensive fronts are a combination of gap assignments, contain assignments & reads. Many of us can see that defenders are not assigned to gaps. We all know that defenders have no contain assignments unless you call a limited number of plays. And most of us can see that d-linemen head towards the o-lineman assigned to block them instead of reading or playing a gap. So, is it broken?

Do you know the goal of a stunt? Are stunts broken in Madden?

If you want a true sim of football on a video game....keep looking. It has never happened. No the other game back in 2004 was not a true sim of football. It also had plenty of arcady traits.

It's is a video game. Madden is a lot of fun to play. It gives just enough level of real football elements without being this over cumbersome clusterf*** of playbook, playcalling screens, gap assignments, coverage etc etc.

In other words they do not want to overwhlem the sports video game player looking to enjoy a game of football in less than an hour.

Games like Front Page Football where you have a minute detail you could ask for is more along these lines. A game where you coach the team, call the play and watch them played out. A game where you can create custom plays (yes I remember when Madden had that) and create your own play book. HC09 also has a lot of those elements.

I love Madden for what it is. A fun, well paced game of video game football with just enough features (finally with 12) in franchise mode to keep me playing for a few years and a handfull of seasons in dynasty mode.

I think many have expectations that are very high and quite frankly unrealistic for what Madden is.

The allure of Madden is the balance they seem to understand. Make the game pretty realistic (which IMO it is for a video game) but also make it fun and easy to play. You can make the game pretty complex (with gameplanning, house rules, sim sliders, and a sim approach to gameplay) or you can keep it simple and fun and bomb away with a buddy.

That is the beauty of this game. It has that flexability and mass appeal. Someone last year made a post which nailed it. they want to be able to have junior play a game against his grandmother.

Nothing wrong with that. Because IMO the game also gives you deep elements of football, slider options to crank up the cpu, and yes I use houserules to make the game even more sim. Crap I have been using house rules with football games since Atari Real Sports football!

I understand MLB 2011 and NBA2K11 are masterful (I play the crap out of them and love them to death). Baseball is a niche sport with video games in todays world, Basketball.....let me tell ya 2K nailed it with 2K11 with their slider options. that game can be as arcade or a sim as you want. NHL also has classic NHL 94 controls if you just want to plug and play and kick a buddies ***.


Have some fun with the game. Maybe you will enjoy it more.

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I don't know that much about football play design, but I know there's NOT any standing around, and nobody is left unblocked. I know that if a linebacker is standing still (i.e. his feet aren't moving), that's a problem. And basic.

Very true. I will never sit here and say Madden is perfect or even in the same league with 2K11 or The Show 11.

But I have never expected it. I have been playing Madden too long to not understand their core gameplay and what it is. It is fun first. And IMO Madden 11 was the most realistic Madden they had ever made despite the bugs and problems.

I believe (going out on a limb) that Madden 12 will be the refined, tight version we have been waiting for and the numerous enhanements and feature upgrades are going to make it the signature Madden game to date.