Is madden building on a broken foundation?

[KOTC Wayne]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I understand your enthusiasm, and I'm glad you have fun with the game, but I would be careful with using the word "we", in a statement like that.

You might think that Madden is exactly where it is supposed to be, but that doesn't mean that Bezo has to feel the same way. If he wants more realism in the game than you do, then that makes him different than you, not wrong, or "ridiculous", which is a word I've seen you use numerous times on this forum to describe other's expectations for the game.

I also don't understand the "no Football game is perfectly realistic" argument either. So because no one has totally nailed true sim Football yet, why bother trying?

Again, it's cool that you have fun with the game. I've been known to have a level of fun with it too, but why pooh pooh Bezo's suggestions for improving the game, especially when much of them have been done before with some modicum of success and are not out of the reach of what is possible to do with this title either?

I keep hearing everyone was ok with criticism on this site if you do it in a mature fashion, provide examples, and come up with suggestions on how to fix issues. Are we absolutely sure about that?

I agree, when people say it's a video game and it's not suppose to be realistic irks me b/c I along with many others play the game for the realness.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I do think that the word broken is overused, especially with respect to Madden, and I hesitate to use. I will say that the Passing game, may not be broken, but it is atrocious in my opinion. And if the NCAA demo is any indication, it's still atrocious.

What will it take for the devs to fix pass placement logic, ball trajectory, ball arc, etc. It is beyond old to see a WR beat a DB at the LOS because of a missed jam, and have 5yrds on the DB and lob a pass when the WR is about 15yds up the field, and the pass goes about 25yds up the field, and allows the DB to get back in the play.

The pass should be thrown sky high and should end up 50yds up the field. The WR should run under it, or it should be overthrown. I should not have to wait for the WR to get 35yds up the field in order to throw a pass 50yds.

It's like the game is programmed so that the pass is based on where the Defender is and not the receiver. It's like the Defender HAS to be in the play.

I don't play NCAA, other than the demos, so I don't know if it's worse than Madden usually, but if the Madden 12 demo is like this, I can't buy it, despite all the other improvements, which I am excited about. It is just too infuriating.

I really want a system where we aim the pass, and no, Precision Passing is not close to it. Either that, or RBP at a minimum. I just can't take the ball placement AI in this game anymore.

It's like rubber band AI in a Racing game. No matter how much you beat someone by, the AI is designed to let them catch up. Atrocious.

[mojo6911]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The pass should be thrown sky high and should end up 50yds up the field. The WR should run under it, or it should be overthrown. I should not have to wait for the WR to get 35yds up the field in order to throw a pass 50yds.

I have no problem with trajectory in this exact situation. When I see 1 on 1 on a good WR and press coverage, it is almost always complete for a big gain. My big problem is passing over the middle.

[Smoke6]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I have no problem with trajectory in this exact situation. When I see 1 on 1 on a good WR and press coverage, it is almost always complete for a big gain. My big problem is passing over the middle.

THIS^ is the problem that you are taking advantage of in a big way, there is no one that fast on earth that could the moment the ball is snapped, get off of there coverage and catch a ball that was thrown 60yds deep in less time than they can run the 40yd dash without gear on.

Passing is completely broken and several individuals play to that in there scheme! What is also broken is the "no looking for the ball" completions that upset the heck out of me when people do this all game long. How is it I can be on the ball looking and my opponent just bullet passes a ball to his wr as soon as the ball is hiked and his back completely turned running his route to only have "spider senses" and catch the ball and hold on to it.

I played a guy earlier who would motion Dez bryant and hike the ball as soon as he got into the A gap and Dez would pancake my Dlinemen and the RB would get 5+ yards everytime he did this no matter what i did.

Trajectory is really off, has anyone else noticed that when you are not close to the intended receiver that the ball will most likely be over thrown but when you are in his range he will make the catch regardless how deep downfield the ball was intended to be?

That kills me when guys hold on to a completely overthrown pass when they get the snot knocked out of them the very second the ball touches there fingertips!

But how can you say that passing is "atrocious" but still not broken? Thats like saying "you threw a rod in your engine, but its still worth driving in that condition"!

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

THIS^ is the problem that you are taking advantage of in a big way, there is no one that fast on earth that could the moment the ball is snapped, get off of there coverage and catch a ball that was thrown 60yds deep in less time than they can run the 40yd dash without gear on.

Passing is completely broken and several individuals play to that in there scheme! What is also broken is the "no looking for the ball" completions that upset the heck out of me when people do this all game long. How is it I can be on the ball looking and my opponent just bullet passes a ball to his wr as soon as the ball is hiked and his back completely turned running his route to only have "spider senses" and catch the ball and hold on to it.

I played a guy earlier who would motion Dez bryant and hike the ball as soon as he got into the A gap and Dez would pancake my Dlinemen and the RB would get 5+ yards everytime he did this no matter what i did.

Trajectory is really off, has anyone else noticed that when you are not close to the intended receiver that the ball will most likely be over thrown but when you are in his range he will make the catch regardless how deep downfield the ball was intended to be?

That kills me when guys hold on to a completely overthrown pass when they get the snot knocked out of them the very second the ball touches there fingertips!

But how can you say that passing is "atrocious" but still not broken? Thats like saying "you threw a rod in your engine, but its still worth driving in that condition"!

It's broken to me, but many people love it just the way it is, so I can't say it's totally broken, just atrocious in my opinion. Best way I can describe it.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I have no problem with trajectory in this exact situation. When I see 1 on 1 on a good WR and press coverage, it is almost always complete for a big gain. My big problem is passing over the middle.

I find it atrocious in all situations. The passes are dependent on the defender. You can almost never throw the ball far enough that your WR, who has a couple steps on the defender, can still maintain those few steps by the time the ball arrives.

I'd rather the ball be overthrown most of the time than have it under thrown damn near all the time.

Passing is atrocious in EA Sports titles. The worst of any Football game I've ever played. And I've played just about all of them.

[TheSportzGuru]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Wow you guys go real hard when it comes to the Madden engine/foundation...

Here's what I think (just my opinion of course): The AI in Madden 11 was MESSED UP! Like what some other guys said in this very thread, there were those moments that just made you go WOW! I really enjoyed playing Madden 10, and Madden 11 was a step in the wrong direction for me, mainly because of the focus on MUT and gameflow. The locomotion system was however a good step in the right direction, I'll give EA that.

If they just focused more on Franchise mode and Gameplay in 11, I would've loved it and played it to now end like i did for Madden 10, but it disappointed me.

Getting back to 12, since they DID fix stuff in franchise and superstar, as well as presentation and gameplay, I think this game will be a HUGE step in the right direction. This topic was mentioned above: 'foot planting'. That's the ONLY problem I see with M12, besides of course an RTP engine, which isn't gonna happen until the new consoles are released in at least 4 to 5 years.

No, the Madden foundation is not broken. Biggest thing to fix first: have ALL 22 PLAYERS INTERACT ON THE FIELD (i.e. don't have ANY blockers just standing there, or any safetys letting the WR get an easy TD without trying to run him down)

[Sam Marlowe]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The tagline for Madden this year should be "Moving In the right direction". Not quite where they should be yet but at least we are seeing improvement. Whether or not you should pat them on the back for doing this after years of producing games inferior to previous gen football titles is a different debate.

[kingsofthevalley]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

So basically it seemed like a dive right into the super high detail the new consoles could provide without making sure very basic things like having the correct personnel and equipment on the field or making sure they move and look like human beings were done.

Exactly. Didn't make sure the players moved and looked like human beings. Still a problem to this very day.

[wyrm187]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The crazy thing is if you look at MLB the SHow - the game is the same on PS2 and PS3, same engine, same gameplay - they just reskinned in . . .. it's the same damn game. If they would have done that with 05 they would have a bunch of lovers on here - not a bunch of haters. They already had a WINNER in place with 05 and for some reason they chose to start from scratch, we know it was not the technology because the show did it for both systems. I for one am done donating to this crap franchise

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The crazy thing is if you look at MLB the SHow - the game is the same on PS2 and PS3, same engine, same gameplay - they just reskinned in . . .. it's the same damn game. If they would have done that with 05 they would have a bunch of lovers on here - not a bunch of haters. They already had a WINNER in place with 05 and for some reason they chose to start from scratch, we know it was not the technology because the show did it for both systems. I for one am done donating to this crap franchise

'05 was the year linebackers and DBs were jumping out of shoes/socks to intercept passes, resulting in imbalanced gameplay. Done mainly because the gameplay in '04 was so out of whack because of their tailoring things around Michael Vick which were resulting in people regularly scoring 70pt+ games in 5min quarters.

No, imo they would've been criticized if they tried to port what was in place last gen. I think people forget that the engine was showing it's age back then - lack of player interaction, graphics (pudgy/muscular player models), and huge presentation issues. 2K/989/Microsoft Studios were opening people's eyes to different takes on videogame football. The big thing the PS2-era games had going for it were the gameplay and depth. Things like player momentum, ball physics, franchise, online play, extra game/practice modes, create-a-play, etc. were all things Madden did really well last gen. With the next gen jump they ported over the problems they had last gen, and added issues with almost everything they were already doing well the previous generation. The one area the game improved was graphics - pretty much everything else was a step (or several steps) backwards.

Imo many look fondly back on the older games mainly because next gen Madden and NCAA have been so bad for so long. Back then we wanted change; I don't think anyone imagined they'd make the games so much worse.

[Lakers 24 7]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I know there are a lot of posts talking about the trouble madden has had this generation but after seeing some of the madden 12 gameplay although early I see the same problems again. I'm not gonna go into detail because I am sure everyone has heard this stuff already, but where did the Madden franchise go wrong?

I remember back on the PS2 days madden was one of the biggest franchises in videogames. I still remember picking up my ps2 and a copy of madden 2001 and how great that game looked and played. They just seemed to nail every detail. Even though it was their first time on a new console it seemed like EA really took their time and made a good game.

Fast forward to Madden 07 for the the PS3 although the game looked very pretty it just did not feel like madden. It was very clunky and had numerous AI problems. Now being a yearly game the EA sports team behind madden does not really have the time or resources to build a new engine when they have a game coming out every year. While I understand this I can see why this generation has really turned south for the Madden franchise.

Madden is building on an engine that was pretty much completely broken to begin with. The madden 06 game was rushed to market and it seems the team just built upon that engine for years to come. I obviously do not know this as fact but the game seems to play very similar to these early titles with some refinement.

I know this was a very long post and some of the things might have been said before, but I am interested in hearing your opinions on the topic. To me it just seems like EA needs to go back to the drawing board rather than try to fix something that is completely broken to begin with. There is so much to this game of football that we love and Madden just seems to ignore so much of it this generation of games.

I still don't understand why people think EA doesn't have the time to produce a good game. Madden 12 will have 7 years worth of development time put into it. Being that it's the same engine, they've been working on and improving this game for 7 years now. When they first came onto the 360, we gave them some leeway knowing it would take time to fully develop a good next gen title. Well, now after 7 years there's no excuse. That's plenty time to put together a good game.

For those who don't believe so, just look at the 2k series and how far NBA 2k has come. Heck, look at APF and the little development time they've had, and that game is still far superior than the football games EA is putting out. That tells the story. If 2k can accomplish in one year, what EA has failed to do in 7, they're clearly not focused on delivering a sim football product.

Resources? EA Sports is the largest sports publisher, they have plenty resources.

The problem isn't EA or their engine though, the problem is the consumer. EA is a business and must do what's in their best financial interest. When people line up at midnight, year after year, to purchase their arcade football title, that gives EA the OK to continue pushing out what sells. They won't change their ways until the consumers force them to.

Bottom line, if you want EA to put out a good game, then stop buying it until they do!

[Celtic34]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Building on or just rehashing and milking a franchise and watering it down are two different things. They have improved the graphics. The technology has improved. They have better technology at their disposal. I Think the issue is these companies don't want creative ideas or people to create. Madden has an exclusive license. They just want to improve it each and every year. They don't want to create something new. Companies like this don't exist anymore. It's a serious issue in todays society imo. EA has basically locked everyone else out.

It's not just madden either. It's the entire entertainment industry and the people in suits. From movies to TV to everything in between. The legal system has allowed them to seize complete control over property that isn't rightfully theirs imo.

Was Madden really EA's idea? It was created by an employee of theirs and a person. The contracted it and own it. They basically stole the right for other people with similar ideas to create better things.

I think the people that have kind of just accepted this is what we get and what we are fed are the issue. I think there is a lot of ignorance from the consumer as well, where they don't know there is better. They have been brainwashed for too long.

[Smoke6]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Man, its crazy that we cant seem to come to a 'middle ground' with this discussion. Im just tied of people abusing the flaws in this game we are here discussing, as part of there gameplan and scheme and break the game even further.

Like the guy said above, its been 7 years!!!!

Some people dont even give there loved ones that much time to shape up or get there act together and yet, we are here giving every benefit of the doubt to whats been wrong with this game for years.

Thru the thick of it all, it seems the most asked for serious issues either...

a) No one there is skilled enough to program for, like gameplay issues

b) Marketing department truly takes the reigns and intimidates the devs

c) Money machine and EA doesnt truly care for what happens to madden until it takes that fatal blow like its NBA Live Series just did!

Either way, it stinks and its like a slap in the face to those who still continue to support and hold out every year in hope that it does get better and better and things WE ask for do get worked on and put in the very next year or thru a patch.

[89OneHanded]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

IGN Ratings of Madden on 360/PS3:

Madden 06: 8.0 "Great"
Madden 07: 8.5 "Great"
Madden 08: 8.7 "Great"
Madden 09: 8.8 "Great"
Madden 10: 8.9 "Great"
Madden 11: 8.0 "Great"

Really. Madden 06 is the same as Madden 11? Madden 10 was the pinnacle? Madden 06 was one of the worst games I have ever played and it got a "Great" score?

Haha, this is funny to me. Think about it this way, if they are rating the games 8-10, 8 being garbage and 10 being acceptable, then these ratings are just about accurate, lol.

Honestly, I really don't see what any of you guys see in Madden 11. It is just as bad a game as 06. Madden 06, 09, and 11 are the only video games I've ever bought and taken back within a month. And out of the next gen 06-11, I'd agree with IGN. Madden 10 was the "pinnacle" so far...though pinnacle is not the right word to use. I am very adamant that 11 was certainly NOT an improvement from 10.

As for the OP, I agree with a lot of things said in here for both sides. I despise the arcadey direction they've gone with the game, leaving out so many sim football elements like gap responsibilities, realistic ball carrier movement, formation subs, etc... I'm just tired of the paradox of hating on EA. Our complaining to them doesn't mean jack, because they have the NFLPA license, and they know we'll buy it anyway, no matter what mediocre product they throw on the shelf.

Anyways, I won't repeat what everyone has already said, I just wanted to throw in my two cents, and that I've enjoyed reading the thread.