Is madden building on a broken foundation?

[Broncos86]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Roadman and CRMosier said it better than I did. Yeah, I didn't word that very well, and I'm ashamed.

The engine is just everything you described and the images I showed is part of that engine they jumped from to what we have now! ....

You still don't get it. You're not understanding the modular aspect, and I don't think I can explain it in a way that you'll get it, at this point.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Not people that want drastic changes are irrational but people that think drastic changes can be made in one cycle are irrational and don't think about the consequences.

There are definitely irrational people, on both sides lol. However, what could be considered drastic to one person, or not doable in one cycle, in reality, may or may not be the case. We aren't in the know to a large extent in that sense.

There is also a lot to be said for the philosophy of man power. Some projects that aren't doable in a one year cycle can become so with larger teams. They seem to be implementing this type of ideology currently. We'll see how successful it will be. I think it will help. Not an indictment on EA and their strategy before though.

In short, what is a drastic change? What is doable in one dev cycle? I think the answer isn't as clear cut as most think, and is quite subjective. Especially to those on the outside looking in. That being the case, are we really sure who is irrational and who isn't?

[bucky60]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The only real perks I see with last gen over whats been offered the last 2 years is some of the owner mode stuff in franchise mode, but I could care less about setting food and ticket prices. Last time I checked, this is a football game...not Amusement Park Tycoon.

Only? You're right, it's a football game and running a franchise is a huge part of football.

[misterkrabz]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

LMAO...people say this every year, but then every year, they are back saying the exact same thing year after year.

If you accepted its never going to change...why are you here? You have nothing better to move on to?

Seems like all some people want to do is moan about the same things over and over.

And LMAO at the notion that last gen is much better (at least at this point). Last gen's gameplay is just as stiff and boring as Madden 2010 and 2011. Last gens presentation was even worse. The only real perks I see with last gen over whats been offered the last 2 years is some of the owner mode stuff in franchise mode, but I could care less about setting food and ticket prices. Last time I checked, this is a football game...not Amusement Park Tycoon.

Yeah, I can't speak for everyone but for me I keep coming back each year hoping something changes and I hope EA here's my "moans". Maybe you have a direct line to the people at EA who make the decisions but I don't, this is as close as I get. So to answer your really dumb question, that's why I come back every year.

Also as a customer, I give EA the benefit of the doubt and check out the game(s) each year hoping I see something I like, mostly because I used to love video game football. Don't worry bro, I fully expect to be let down but I've come to terms with it because my expectations are so beaten down by now that anything else would be a shock.

As far as last gen being "just as stiff" I would have to disagree. The feel, control, the options, and so on is completely different. But I guess in your mind they're the same. Good for you I guess. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live in the same mindless fog you live in where everythings the same....

[Broncos86]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live in the same mindless fog you live in where everythings the same....

Ad Hominem attacks and direct insults aren't needed. Also, it's a good way to get an infraction.

Last gen was fine until I realized how limited the animations were, how stale and repetitive the game play was, and how bland it was as a whole. Yeah, franchise mode was better. But not even that could keep me interested. At some point, I do want to actually play football.

[CMH]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Cool it, guys. No need for these things to get personal.

[Joe Strange]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

If you want a true sim of football on a video game....keep looking. It has never happened. No the other game back in 2004 was not a true sim of football. It also had plenty of arcady traits.

It's is a video game. Madden is a lot of fun to play. It gives just enough level of real football elements without being this over cumbersome clusterf*** of playbook, playcalling screens, gap assignments, coverage etc etc.

In other words they do not want to overwhlem the sports video game player looking to enjoy a game of football in less than an hour.

Games like Front Page Football where you have a minute detail you could ask for is more along these lines. A game where you coach the team, call the play and watch them played out. A game where you can create custom plays (yes I remember when Madden had that) and create your own play book. HC09 also has a lot of those elements.

I love Madden for what it is. A fun, well paced game of video game football with just enough features (finally with 12) in franchise mode to keep me playing for a few years and a handfull of seasons in dynasty mode.

I think many have expectations that are very high and quite frankly unrealistic for what Madden is.

The allure of Madden is the balance they seem to understand. Make the game pretty realistic (which IMO it is for a video game) but also make it fun and easy to play. You can make the game pretty complex (with gameplanning, house rules, sim sliders, and a sim approach to gameplay) or you can keep it simple and fun and bomb away with a buddy.

That is the beauty of this game. It has that flexability and mass appeal. Someone last year made a post which nailed it. they want to be able to have junior play a game against his grandmother.

Nothing wrong with that. Because IMO the game also gives you deep elements of football, slider options to crank up the cpu, and yes I use houserules to make the game even more sim. Crap I have been using house rules with football games since Atari Real Sports football!

I understand MLB 2011 and NBA2K11 are masterful (I play the crap out of them and love them to death). Baseball is a niche sport with video games in todays world, Basketball.....let me tell ya 2K nailed it with 2K11 with their slider options. that game can be as arcade or a sim as you want. NHL also has classic NHL 94 controls if you just want to plug and play and kick a buddies ***.


Have some fun with the game. Maybe you will enjoy it more.

Haven't you non-sim players had your go round? I understand what you mean by having a carefree-just-have-fun-with-what-you-got-attitude, but the problem is that's our only option. I force myself to have fun with it, but at heart what I'm really craving is a dynamic simulation experience. For them to keep catering to the casual gamer is ridiculous. The casual gamer has had an abundance of their style of game over the last 7 or 8 years. The technology is available to make a complex game that simulates football. Hell, why not release 2 different games? Keep doing what they're doing now, which is releasing a completely broken engine (by simulation standards) every year with all the nice little gimmicks that will still make it sell. Then on top of that, get serious about a simulation engine with the aim being realism. You hear everyone saying the 1 year cycle is too short, but if they released a game every 3-4 years that made the type of strides in gameplay 2K5 made to 2K8, shoot, I'd gladly pay $300 for it.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Haven't you non-sim players had your go round? I understand what you mean by having a carefree-just-have-fun-with-what-you-got-attitude, but the problem is that's our only option. I force myself to have fun with it, but at heart what I'm really craving is a dynamic simulation experience. For them to keep catering to the casual gamer is ridiculous. The casual gamer has had an abundance of their style of game over the last 7 or 8 years. The technology is available to make a complex game that simulates football. Hell, why not release 2 different games? Keep doing what they're doing now, which is releasing a completely broken engine (by simulation standards) every year with all the nice little gimmicks that will still make it sell. Then on top of that, get serious about a simulation engine with the aim being realism. You hear everyone saying the 1 year cycle is too short, but if they released a game every 3-4 years that made the type of strides in gameplay 2K5 made to 2K8, shoot, I'd gladly pay $300 for it.

They tried that with HC and it didn't work in the niche market. Also, there would be a tremendous amount of money to spend on two different projects. Also, for 12, DPP, Custom Playbooks and player traits are turning Madden more into a sim game. Plus, Cam Weber, the new director, is hiring double the game play team, so, it looks like Madden is going in the right direction. That stuff doesn't scream "casual gamer" to me, but maybe it does to others.

Not a bad idea, though.

[Joe Strange]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

They tried that with HC and it didn't work in the niche market. Also, there would be a tremendous amount of money to spend on two different projects. Also, for 12, DPP, Custom Playbooks and player traits are turning Madden more into a sim game. Plus, Cam Weber, the new director, is hiring double the game play team, so, it looks like Madden is going in the right direction. That stuff doesn't scream "casual gamer" to me, but maybe it does to others.

Not a bad idea, though.

I hear ya, although HC was a little different situation. Yea, they're moving in the right direction, but with their resources, it pains me to imagine what they could accomplish if they were fully committed to making the best (I define best as realism) video game they possible could.

[Smoke6]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I hear ya, although HC was a little different situation. Yea, they're moving in the right direction, but with their resources, it pains me to imagine what they could accomplish if they were fully committed to making the best (I define best as realism) video game they possible could.

Well, if madden 12 doesnt live up to its billing, then I can safely say I know where their attention went too, MUT!

Yes, they're making a boatload of money doing that, but there is also a way to seperate the SIM player from the Freestyle player, with paid for transactions. But it shouldnt be that costly to make 2 seprate modes for players like us to have our entertainment the way we have been asking for since forever. The foundation is already there along with the limited engine

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Haven't you non-sim players had your go round? I understand what you mean by having a carefree-just-have-fun-with-what-you-got-attitude, but the problem is that's our only option. I force myself to have fun with it, but at heart what I'm really craving is a dynamic simulation experience. For them to keep catering to the casual gamer is ridiculous. The casual gamer has had an abundance of their style of game over the last 7 or 8 years. The technology is available to make a complex game that simulates football. Hell, why not release 2 different games? Keep doing what they're doing now, which is releasing a completely broken engine (by simulation standards) every year with all the nice little gimmicks that will still make it sell. Then on top of that, get serious about a simulation engine with the aim being realism. You hear everyone saying the 1 year cycle is too short, but if they released a game every 3-4 years that made the type of strides in gameplay 2K5 made to 2K8, shoot, I'd gladly pay $300 for it.

Ok let me just tell ya I am a sim sports gamer. I am a nut about stat's, realistic play and deep immersion in presentation and GM and coaching duties (not a big fan of owner modes I could care less about the finances of the entire team as I manage money for living already...lol). So I am with you sim guys. I am one of you and yearn for deep superbly realistic football video game.


My entire point about Madden is it is a hybrid game. And if you know this you can appreciate the game for what it tries to do. Give you a good game of football with sim style stats, animations etc but have a real fun factor element and accessability.

Since Madden first came out it has had the same foundation and approach. You either loved it or played a different football game (QB Club, Gameday, 2K football, NFL Fever). The main reason there is such an outcry today and for the past 6 years is the exclusive license and lack of another choice for NFL video game football.

Madden has had a rough go on the new gen. I am glad I passed on all of them except for 10 and 11. I played Madden 2005 and 2007 to death. I loved them. I also played NFL 2K5 a bunch (still do from time to time) fantastic game too. But I can tell you I played Madden a heck of lot more. I just like the way it played better. And there are plenty of people who would agree with that and plenty who would not.

But I am of the opinion Madden 10 and 11 made huge strides in the series and with 12 we are going to get one of the deepest if not deepest Maddens ever. Deep to me is much more than presentation elements.

DPP and player tendencies are a huge feature....just huge. And IMO if it is executed properly (remains to be seen till we get our hands on the game) the game will be the pinnacle of the series and give us major sim elements we never had before in player performance, streaks, scouting, pre-season meaning something, a much better draft experience due to deep scouting etc.


On the field......again, Madden is what it is. You either like it's core style or you don't.

I am not going to make excuses for all of the mis-steps. All I can say is starting with Madden 10 things have gotten much better and I feel and see the upgrade from PS2. I can't play old gen Madden anymore. Madden 10 made those titles obsolete for me with the running game alone.

The only mainstream sports game that I have played that has nailed the sim/casual experience is 2K11. I can't speak for FIFA as I don't play soccer games. It is not an easy task to make everyone one happy. Never happens in fact.


Again...your either Madden player or your not.

I totally agree with you about making 2 games. But it will not happen as the NFL (not EA) controls that ship. I would love to see a complex deep NFL sim game executed well on and off the field. HC09 was close but on the field it fell short IMO and I prefer to play on the field as well.

I love that Looman is working on Madden 12's franchise mode as great elements of HC09 are in and more seems likely to come in future editions of the game.


I see the progress and I think 12 makes big strides as far as sim goes off the field.

On the field? It's Madden. Don't know what else to say.

[CRMosier_LM]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

There are definitely irrational people, on both sides lol. However, what could be considered drastic to one person, or not doable in one cycle, in reality, may or may not be the case. We aren't in the know to a large extent in that sense.

There is also a lot to be said for the philosophy of man power. Some projects that aren't doable in a one year cycle can become so with larger teams. They seem to be implementing this type of ideology currently. We'll see how successful it will be. I think it will help. Not an indictment on EA and their strategy before though.

In short, what is a drastic change? What is doable in one dev cycle? I think the answer isn't as clear cut as most think, and is quite subjective. Especially to those on the outside looking in. That being the case, are we really sure who is irrational and who isn't?

I'm sure they could scrap what they have worked on since Madden 10's initial development cycle and put something together but chances are very high that the game would resemble a much worse 06 since they had worked with that "next gen" tech initially for around 28 months to get it usable.

And they did double the size of the dev team, but the doubling isn't for current cycles it is to deal with future tech that way when one cycle finishes they have a head start on the next. And also for development for the next console generation.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

i dont think the issue will be resolved until the next generation of consoles. if they were to rebuild now it would be a lost cause IMO

What if they purchased the engine used for Allpro football? Would a next gen console be needed for a better football product?

Interesting huh?

[johnprestonevans]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The answer to the original question is YES. They've done a good job to fix the problems with the current-gen code, but it's hard to build a solid structure on a sinkhole. Madden 12 appears to be a massive leap ahead from 06 - both in terms of calendar years and quality. However, I think most of us look back at last-gen to remember Madden in its prime. If only they built a stong foundation for the Xbox360 launch, and kept a sim-focus/broadcast authentic approach all these years and the series would still be on top of the sports gaming world. Here's to a building strong foundation for the next generation of Madden.

[Only1LT]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I'm sure they could scrap what they have worked on since Madden 10's initial development cycle and put something together but chances are very high that the game would resemble a much worse 06 since they had worked with that "next gen" tech initially for around 28 months to get it usable.

And they did double the size of the dev team, but the doubling isn't for current cycles it is to deal with future tech that way when one cycle finishes they have a head start on the next. And also for development for the next console generation.

My only point is that it could be done, not that it would be flawless out of the box.

Many people say that they can't add RTP in one dev cycle. I'm just saying that they could, especially if they added a team to work on that specifically. Would it be perfect? Probably not, but let's be honest, it wouldn't be the first time that a new feature was added to Madden, or any game for that matter, that didn't work as advertised initially. You have to start somewhere though. What is the alternative? Say that something isn't possible in one dev cycle so you just never bother to start it?

You could also add teams to work on new tech or a totally new version of the game, while still having a team to refine the current version. Would that make fiscal sense? I would tend to doubt it, but again they could if they wanted to.

And I don't understand your last point about them increasing the size of the team, but not to work on current cycles, unless I'm reading it wrong. Future tech will become the current cycle eventually, unless they never use it, so they will be helping out with current cycles. The point is that they are seeing the wisdom of having more man power so that they can accomplish more, in the same amount of time.