Is madden building on a broken foundation?

[ACardAttack]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

While I agree the other game played a heck of a game of football and had a lot of great qualities it was going to have a difficult time surpassing Madden in terms of popularity. The 19.99 price tag was a last ditch effort IMO. Their was no real margin of profit in selling a brand new game at 19.99. That price tag should tell you something. There were still millions of gamers who coughed up $60 plus for Madden despite having a great alternative. There was no financially sound way 2K/VC could survive getting the exclusive license. It would have put them in a huge hole and compromise all their other titles. EA pounced. It was good business on their part.

While Madden did sell better, it was the first time in a while that they had seen sales competition...I dont know about profit, but 2k5 sold almost as much as madcen on the xbox..ps2 not really close...but it got their name out there.

[CMH]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

All right, here it goes:

This thread is about the Madden Engine. There is no reason we should be reading about licenses, exclusivity, NFL 2K, 2K Sports, $19.99 price tags, and so on.

Stay on-topic. I don't want to close a thread with a nice discussion for these forums.

[Cre8]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I think Armor had a very good point about 'Madden Being Madden'... It is similar to the Manny Being Manny issues in MLB.

You know what you are going to get with Madden every single year. Is the foundation broken? It depends on who you ask.

Myself, I think the foundation is firmly set in place by the almighty dollar. People have been buying Madden in droves for 20+ years. They have had some moments (Madden 05!) that made me think - "OMG! This game is just going to be amazing from here on out!"

Then when next gen came out after PS2 I was so disappointed that I simply stopped buying the game new off the shelf.

If you buy Madden new, retail... you are part of the foundation.

[steelersfan77]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

i dont think the issue will be resolved until the next generation of consoles. if they were to rebuild now it would be a lost cause IMO

Who's to say that whatever "supposed" talented team of developers get hired for Madden on next gens don't just code stuff over and repeat and rinse what came over from the old consoles?

Where's the guarantee in that?

Obviously what they promoted on the PS2 and 360 back in the day didn't make it in. Maybe they were promoting Madden 17 in 2007.

[PRAY IV M3RCY]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The biggest cliche I have ever seen about posts on sports games.

Maybe it's broken for you. But their are millions of people who do not find the game broken. I have said it so many times in the past. You either are a Madden player or your not.

The game IMO has had the same (foundation and style) feel for over 15 years strong (ever since the move to PS1). On this gen of consoles it has been a rocky ride no question. But with 10, 11 and now 12 the game is hitting it's stride.

You either like it or you don't. It is not changing drastically (gameplay feel and look) for those who are stuck in the 2K mind set. I don't want a flame war to break out but I just scratch my head at stuff like this. The game is not broken. Is it amazing? No. Is Madden 12 going to be the best Madden to date...my money will be on yes. And I say this because Madden 11 was the most fun I have had with Madden since PS2 2007 and the improvements from 11 to 12 are going to be huge. A much deeper franchise mode, DPP, HDR lighting, Broadcast Cameras galore etc etc etc. This is going to be the Madden that I at least have been waiting for on the New Gen consoles. It took them a little longer to get here than on PS2 but the PS2/XBOX Maddens had some severe growing pains with 2001-2003. Things really got better with Madden 2010.

Anyway off my soap box.

thats all fine..u like a responsive game that doesnt take into account for player momemtum and foot planting..u would rather get from point A to point B without taking into account the laws of physics...

[PRAY IV M3RCY]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Im far from a Madden apologist, but this is complete bunk.

Either you are simply hating or have no idea what "broken" actually is.

Some of those things arent up to par, but the only one Id say is "broken" is penalties, because they are virtually non existent for some reason.

Ratings are not broken. Do they affect the game like they should? Not all of them, but the ratings system has improved drastically. It always makes me laugh when people say last gens ratings were better when they were definitely not.

Robotic running game doesnt mean its broken....it doesnt feel natural, I agree, but its definitely not "broken".

Line interaction is far from perfect, but again, its much better than it has been in the past and not broken at all.

WR/DB interaction...to a point, AT TIMES, you could make a case that its broken, so I wont harp on that. But this years game looks like it improved on it a bit.

Online franchise may be lame, but its far from perfect. Tons of people still enjoy it. Offline franchise was just addressed this year. Offline franchise is more important than online, so Im sure more stuff will be added in time as they get offline chise up to par.

Not sure what you mean by sidelines.

Madden isnt even close to where it should be, but a broken game is virtually unplayable. People who act like Madden is THAT bad obviously never played ACTUAL "broken" games.

To answer the OP...its not a broken foundation, but it is completely outdated and limits how good the game can actually be. IMO, there is no chance the actual gameplay will ever be much better until they start over, which wont be until next gen 3-4 years from now. And if they start off bad again, well....could be looking at a repeat.

Not bashing EA, but I really hope they lose the NFL license by then. Compeition is needed to make these games better.

pertaining to the sliding and lack of foot planting and no realistic leaning when a person turns r cuts on a dime..yes its completely broken..I want ppl to stop accepting whats been given to them and start seeing how football should be played..and also its not like it cant be done as u see other games that have and are capable of implementing this into a video game.

[PRAY IV M3RCY]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

Ok let me just tell ya I am a sim sports gamer. I am a nut about stat's, realistic play and deep immersion in presentation and GM and coaching duties (not a big fan of owner modes I could care less about the finances of the entire team as I manage money for living already...lol). So I am with you sim guys. I am one of you and yearn for deep superbly realistic football video game.


My entire point about Madden is it is a hybrid game. And if you know this you can appreciate the game for what it tries to do. Give you a good game of football with sim style stats, animations etc but have a real fun factor element and accessability.

Since Madden first came out it has had the same foundation and approach. You either loved it or played a different football game (QB Club, Gameday, 2K football, NFL Fever). The main reason there is such an outcry today and for the past 6 years is the exclusive license and lack of another choice for NFL video game football.

Madden has had a rough go on the new gen. I am glad I passed on all of them except for 10 and 11. I played Madden 2005 and 2007 to death. I loved them. I also played NFL 2K5 a bunch (still do from time to time) fantastic game too. But I can tell you I played Madden a heck of lot more. I just like the way it played better. And there are plenty of people who would agree with that and plenty who would not.

But I am of the opinion Madden 10 and 11 made huge strides in the series and with 12 we are going to get one of the deepest if not deepest Maddens ever. Deep to me is much more than presentation elements.

DPP and player tendencies are a huge feature....just huge. And IMO if it is executed properly (remains to be seen till we get our hands on the game) the game will be the pinnacle of the series and give us major sim elements we never had before in player performance, streaks, scouting, pre-season meaning something, a much better draft experience due to deep scouting etc.


On the field......again, Madden is what it is. You either like it's core style or you don't.

I am not going to make excuses for all of the mis-steps. All I can say is starting with Madden 10 things have gotten much better and I feel and see the upgrade from PS2. I can't play old gen Madden anymore. Madden 10 made those titles obsolete for me with the running game alone.

The only mainstream sports game that I have played that has nailed the sim/casual experience is 2K11. I can't speak for FIFA as I don't play soccer games. It is not an easy task to make everyone one happy. Never happens in fact.


Again...your either Madden player or your not.

I totally agree with you about making 2 games. But it will not happen as the NFL (not EA) controls that ship. I would love to see a complex deep NFL sim game executed well on and off the field. HC09 was close but on the field it fell short IMO and I prefer to play on the field as well.

I love that Looman is working on Madden 12's franchise mode as great elements of HC09 are in and more seems likely to come in future editions of the game.


I see the progress and I think 12 makes big strides as far as sim goes off the field.

On the field? It's Madden. Don't know what else to say.

i agree having the exclusive license does create more of an outcry but i believe most of its warranted because ppl dont have any other options so of course the only company where their input matters is to the one making the football games..

what with the running game has improved..i just wanna know exactly what you are referring too.

and i have played FIFA its nice too see that they have captured the feel of momentum and realistic running animations

[Armor and Sword]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

i agree having the exclusive license does create more of an outcry but i believe most of its warranted because ppl dont have any other options so of course the only company where their input matters is to the one making the football games..

what with the running game has improved..i just wanna know exactly what you are referring too.

and i have played FIFA its nice too see that they have captured the feel of momentum and realistic running animations

The running game starting with Madden 10 (and even better IMO on 11 and what certainly will be even more refined on 12) just feels better in terms of blocking, being patient for holes to develop. It feels more fluid and smooth. Last gen it was really choppy compared to Madden right now. I could not say that till Madden 10.

I am also a big fan of auto sprint as it feels great breaking through a hole off tackle and feeling that extra jolt of speed and acceleration without a button press.

What can I say. I dig Madden, I have always enjoyed the game and that's it. I guess I find it hard to believe that people can't find some fun and enjoyment in this game. People really tear it apart these days. It is not the best sports game by any means but it is far from being the worst.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

i agree having the exclusive license does create more of an outcry but i believe most of its warranted because ppl dont have any other options so of course the only company where their input matters is to the one making the football games..

what with the running game has improved..i just wanna know exactly what you are referring too.

and i have played FIFA its nice too see that they have captured the feel of momentum and realistic running animations

This has been addressed by one of the developers of Madden. Physics will be addressed in the future. What that means is up to anyone's interpretation. I'm assuming since the Director of both football games that came over from FIFA, will be implementing FIFA type physics in the future.

I feel the first step was to implement consecutive hit tackling. That removed the suction from blocking and tackling, plus, for several years, consecutive hit tackling has been the #1 compliant on You Tube. There are some momentum type physics from ball carriers lunging forward from the consecutive tackling.

I feel it's headed in the right direction from this point forward. Plus, they are doubling the size of the game play team.

I'm not answering for Armour @ Sword, but the run blocking has greatly improved from Madden 10 and forward. I couldn't perform draw plays that worked until Madden 11. I've seen blocking going to the second tier from Madden 11 and the videos of 12.

[Smoke6]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

This has been addressed by one of the developers of Madden. Physics will be addressed in the future. What that means is up to anyone's interpretation. I'm assuming since the Director of both football games that came over from FIFA, will be implementing FIFA type physics in the future.

I feel the first step was to implement consecutive hit tackling. That removed the suction from blocking and tackling, plus, for several years, consecutive hit tackling has been the #1 compliant on You Tube. There are some momentum type physics from ball carriers lunging forward from the consecutive tackling.

I feel it's headed in the right direction from this point forward. Plus, they are doubling the size of the game play team.

I'm not answering for Armour @ Sword, but the run blocking has greatly improved from Madden 10 and forward. I couldn't perform draw plays that worked until Madden 11. I've seen blocking going to the second tier from Madden 11 and the videos of 12.

The draw plays are broken too, you can be in a run defense and still see your Dlinemen run backwards as if you sent them to drop back against the pass. IMO its the most heavily relied on play in Madden 11 right now and its very frustrating to see the same thing out of the same formation going from a pass then audible to the draw and it works almost flawlessly coupled with the 'broken run game' that lets players take off at full sprint from the moment the ball touches their hands.

Once a again, lack of 'foot planting' is complementing things you are pointing out to be good for you, but broken for others. I would like player to have their own 'IDENTITY' and not just looks and one rating that makes them similar to there real life counter part.

Im tired of the same broken drama every year, its always either the same thing from the previous version or something new. Its always gonna be that excuse to what and why something didnt make the cut this year and we'll hopefully get it in the future.

What else is broken is the sprint button being like a homing beacon and defenders are overpowering others they're engaged with in order to make the play on you when you have the speed, momentum, and angle on them to have gotten away or gotten further than expected. This has been an issue with madden for the longest and yet we still dont see eye to eye on the foundation of madden being broken.

What will it take? Some more videos of these issues? The devs coming out saying it themselves over the consumers word?

Is there someone here with the time to make a Pro's and Cons list for this thread, that would really help alot?

[PRAY IV M3RCY]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The running game starting with Madden 10 (and even better IMO on 11 and what certainly will be even more refined on 12) just feels better in terms of blocking, being patient for holes to develop. It feels more fluid and smooth. Last gen it was really choppy compared to Madden right now. I could not say that till Madden 10.

I am also a big fan of auto sprint as it feels great breaking through a hole off tackle and feeling that extra jolt of speed and acceleration without a button press.

What can I say. I dig Madden, I have always enjoyed the game and that's it. I guess I find it hard to believe that people can't find some fun and enjoyment in this game. People really tear it apart these days. It is not the best sports game by any means but it is far from being the worst.

all of that may be true but my argument is dealing with the sliding and lack of realistic momentum with each player and how they turn on a dime without planting their feet. i dont think its the worst the game no but i dont think they have pushed the extra mile into this franchise for some time..however if they did get this right i think it would be one hell of a football game..

[PRAY IV M3RCY]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

This has been addressed by one of the developers of Madden. Physics will be addressed in the future. What that means is up to anyone's interpretation. I'm assuming since the Director of both football games that came over from FIFA, will be implementing FIFA type physics in the future.

I feel the first step was to implement consecutive hit tackling. That removed the suction from blocking and tackling, plus, for several years, consecutive hit tackling has been the #1 compliant on You Tube. There are some momentum type physics from ball carriers lunging forward from the consecutive tackling.

I feel it's headed in the right direction from this point forward. Plus, they are doubling the size of the game play team.

I'm not answering for Armour @ Sword, but the run blocking has greatly improved from Madden 10 and forward. I couldn't perform draw plays that worked until Madden 11. I've seen blocking going to the second tier from Madden 11 and the videos of 12.

im not asking for a physics engine...im just asking for realistic running animations..foot planting and momemtum that should be accounting for every player thats on the field..

[bukktown]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

I know there are a lot of posts talking about the trouble madden has had this generation but after seeing some of the madden 12 gameplay although early I see the same problems again. I'm not gonna go into detail because I am sure everyone has heard this stuff already, but where did the Madden franchise go wrong?

I remember back on the PS2 days madden was one of the biggest franchises in videogames. I still remember picking up my ps2 and a copy of madden 2001 and how great that game looked and played. They just seemed to nail every detail. Even though it was their first time on a new console it seemed like EA really took their time and made a good game.

Fast forward to Madden 07 for the the PS3 although the game looked very pretty it just did not feel like madden. It was very clunky and had numerous AI problems. Now being a yearly game the EA sports team behind madden does not really have the time or resources to build a new engine when they have a game coming out every year. While I understand this I can see why this generation has really turned south for the Madden franchise.

Madden is building on an engine that was pretty much completely broken to begin with. The madden 06 game was rushed to market and it seems the team just built upon that engine for years to come. I obviously do not know this as fact but the game seems to play very similar to these early titles with some refinement.

I know this was a very long post and some of the things might have been said before, but I am interested in hearing your opinions on the topic. To me it just seems like EA needs to go back to the drawing board rather than try to fix something that is completely broken to begin with. There is so much to this game of football that we love and Madden just seems to ignore so much of it this generation of games.

Madden 07 on Xbox 2pi was my first 'nextgen' game. It wasn't fun at all.

Madden 11 does not even resemble Madden 07 in any way/shape or form except one. Gameplay camera.....oh and also the annoying roster screen where you gotta hold down the trigger buttons and move the L stick up and down....

After so many changes it somehow is still not fun.

Why isn't it fun?

The feeling (combo of animations tied to stick sensitivity) of control of your player with the L stick is not very good. Definitely not the sweetness that it was on PS2.

and...

The CPU AI often does unrealistic things. Most notably the AI QB and the AI defensive playcalling.

So to make a long story longer I am saying that the 'foundation' of Madden 07 ps3/2pi wasn't broke. They have changed darn near everything from that game and yet it still isn't as much fun as Madden 07 on ps2.

[roadman]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

im not asking for a physics engine...im just asking for realistic running animations..foot planting and momemtum that should be accounting for every player thats on the field..

The developer said physics would be addressed in the future, they didn't mention a new physics engine, either. All I'm saying is that the foot planting and running animations you are looking for might not be accomplished until the physics issue is addressed.

Time will tell.

[KOTC Wayne]

Re: Is madden building on a broken foundation?

The video with Brady at CB was done on what game setting again?... That's right All-Madden everyone including the devs will tell you that All-Madden makes every player play above their actual ratings. It truly is the setting where only speed matters.

.... And thats crazy, All-Madden should be the main level to show the true essence of player attributes, it's the hardest level on the game. At no level should you be able to sub Tom Brady in at CB and he plays anything close to good.

Madden is building on a broken foundation but on this gen, it would do more damage trying to revamp the foundation now, might as well patch it up with as many band aids as you can but on the NG whenever the new console comes out, I'm not expecting EA to do this again. Hopefully the PS3 and Xbox360 are martyrs for the new consoles whenever they come out for EA to build from a solid foundation. I'm not expecting the first Madden or whatever sports game to be perfect on the new console but by the 3rd game, one would expect for things to be pretty much on point. Madden 12 should have been Madden 09, by year 3 you would think they would be up to par.