Official CBA Thread

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  • grunt
    Banned
    • Jul 2002
    • 9527

    #436
    Re: Official CBA Thread

    Originally posted by da ThRONe
    So where is this billion dollars coming from if not the players?
    I think the billion dollars are coming from the players. Owners make an agreement and now want to back out of the agreement because of poor management by some team owners. Rooney came out and said he didn't need anymore money.

    I can almost bet the owners who need the money the most are poorly managed teams. Jerry how is the gaudy *** stadium coming along?

    Comment

    • tripwire
      MVP
      • Sep 2002
      • 2604

      #437
      Re: Official CBA Thread

      Originally posted by grunt
      I think the billion dollars are coming from the players. Owners make an agreement and now want to back out of the agreement because of poor management by some team owners. Rooney came out and said he didn't need anymore money.

      I can almost bet the owners who need the money the most are poorly managed teams. Jerry how is the gaudy *** stadium coming along?
      ding ding ding, someone knows what he's talking about here

      The table below shows the percentage of money that has gone into players' salaries over the last ten years, as reported by Forbes. 'All Revenues' is the total amount of money the league takes in, 'Total Revenue' is precisely defined in the CBA and is currently about $9 billion gross, minus the $1 billion for the owners.
      <style type="text/css">table.tableizer-table { border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12px; }.tableizer-table td { padding: 4px; margin: 3px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); }.tableizer-table th { background-color: rgb(3, 34, 113); color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-weight: bo</style>
      <table class="tableizer-table" align="center" width="70%"><tbody><tr class="tableizer-firstrow"> <th>Year</th><th align="center">2000</th><th align="center">2001</th><th align="center">2002</th><th align="center">2003</th><th align="center">2004</th><th align="center">2005</th><th align="center">2006</th><th align="center">2007</th><th align="center">2008</th><th align="center">2009</th> </tr> <tr> <td>Players’ Percentage of All Revenues</td> <td align="center">56.5</td> <td align="center">52.6</td> <td align="center">51.8</td> <td align="center">50.5</td> <td align="center">52.3</td> <td align="center">51.1</td> <td align="center">52.7</td> <td align="center">51.8</td> <td align="center">51.0</td> <td align="center">50.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Players’ Percentage of "Total Revenue"</td> <td align="center">61.7</td> <td align="center">57.1</td> <td align="center">56.1</td> <td align="center">54.3</td> <td align="center">57.0</td> <td align="center">55.1</td> <td align="center">58.4</td> <td align="center">58.0</td> <td align="center">57.7</td> <td align="center">57.1</td></tr></tbody></table>
      While the big market owners are too busy counting their money hand over fist, the small market owners are just content if they get a small profit. I already posted a link before to the Forbes article showing the ever-growing revenue gap between the top and bottom franchises. There is also a growing pool of non-shared revenue, like luxury boxes, that is helping to increase the salary caps every year, (all revenue generated by the league leads to increased caps), which in turn is causing the low revenue generating teams to fall behind.

      So instead of fixing a broken Revenue Sharing model, these owners are turning to the players for an answer that they can't fix themselves by decreasing money towards salaries, which as the chart shows above, has not increased significantly at all in the past decade.

      This is the main reason why the NFL is in this mess, all the other stuff they talk about is secondary.

      Comment

      • mestevo
        Gooney Goo Goo
        • Apr 2010
        • 19556

        #438
        Re: Official CBA Thread

        Yeah but your chart doesn't show revenue, so even though percentage was relatively stagnant players have been getting more and more money via the increase in the salary cap and increase in the salary floor. Institute a rookie scale on top of that and it's another raise for the players.

        What I don't quite agree with, and I have a hard time explaining why, is the salary cap shooting up $40m+ per team. I didn't realize with these NFL offers they are basically trying to get away from a percentage based salary cap and instead increase it set amounts over a certain number of seasons, and increasing other benefits as compensation.

        Basically the owners are proposing a lot of the things the players want... better benefits, more player friendly offseason and regular season training rules, lifetime insurance, better protection monetarily from injury, the huge raise for veterans. Their principle disagreement is that all of this is spiffy, but it doesn't take into account further growth, which they claim would just go into owners pockets (which isn't accurate either, but that's their position).

        I think the 'billion off the top' isn't an issue anymore, it's just the literal split of money, or this is a drum you'd hear getting beat in more than just this thread.

        I think the players benefits should be a percentage of all relevant revenues (whatever those are determined to be) and all programs use that as a basis to determine their value. Saying that though, I don't support the salary cap shooting up a ton as a result. Players are relatively well compensated, it's other programs that should benefit from an increase in funds.

        It's unfortunate that this back and forth between players and owners didn't happen 2 weeks ago. For some reason it took a letter directly to the players to get a response at all about that offer.
        Last edited by mestevo; 03-19-2011, 09:14 PM.

        Comment

        • wang_chi7
          Rookie
          • Sep 2004
          • 217

          #439
          Re: Official CBA Thread

          Originally posted by mestevo
          Yeah but your chart doesn't show revenue, so even though percentage was relatively stagnant players have been getting more and more money via the increase in the salary cap and increase in the salary floor. Institute a rookie scale on top of that and it's another raise for the players.

          What I don't quite agree with, and I have a hard time explaining why, is the salary cap shooting up $40m+ per team. I didn't realize with these NFL offers they are basically trying to get away from a percentage based salary cap and instead increase it set amounts over a certain number of seasons, and increasing other benefits as compensation.

          Basically the owners are proposing a lot of the things the players want... better benefits, more player friendly offseason and regular season training rules, lifetime insurance, better protection monetarily from injury, the huge raise for veterans. Their principle disagreement is that all of this is spiffy, but it doesn't take into account further growth, which they claim would just go into owners pockets (which isn't accurate either, but that's their position).

          I think the 'billion off the top' isn't an issue anymore, it's just the literal split of money, or this is a drum you'd hear getting beat in more than just this thread.

          I think the players benefits should be a percentage of all relevant revenues (whatever those are determined to be) and all programs use that as a basis to determine their value. Saying that though, I don't support the salary cap shooting up a ton as a result. Players are relatively well compensated, it's other programs that should benefit from an increase in funds.

          It's unfortunate that this back and forth between players and owners didn't happen 2 weeks ago. For some reason it took a letter directly to the players to get a response at all about that offer.
          The billion off the top was talked ad nausium by the media, so it wasn't just this thread. It was the biggest thing, after the 18 games, to be reported.

          And as far as it taking a letter directly to the players to get a response- we don't know what went on behind closed doors during mediation (and we weren't supposed to due to an agreement.) The last owner's proposal was at the last minute so there wasn't much time to talk about why it was rejected right then and there. Basically it was so the owners could say they offered. And we now know after they had time to talk that it was rejected because the proposal was full of fixed numbers rather than variable. And therefore the players wouldn't enjoy the league's growth. And the salary cap would go back to about 5 years ago (see the link King B Mack posted) which wouldn't work so well when player contracts have been on the rise (owner's hands weren't tied they make the offers.)

          And of course the chart is based on percentages! Not only has player salaries increased, so has total revenue. As the player's piece is based on a percent that means that the owner's take has grown just the same as the players since they are therefore based on a percent too. For every extra dollar of revenue the owners receive about 50 cents of it. That stays the same if its 100 dollars or 100 billion. They share the wealth. Unless the last offer was accepted that is, then player salaries basically become a fixed expense (well not quite but you get the idea)

          Comment

          • wang_chi7
            Rookie
            • Sep 2004
            • 217

            #440
            Re: Official CBA Thread

            Originally posted by tripwire
            ding ding ding, someone knows what he's talking about here

            The table below shows the percentage of money that has gone into players' salaries over the last ten years, as reported by Forbes. 'All Revenues' is the total amount of money the league takes in, 'Total Revenue' is precisely defined in the CBA and is currently about $9 billion gross, minus the $1 billion for the owners.
            <style type="text/css">table.tableizer-table { border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); font-family: Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12px; }.tableizer-table td { padding: 4px; margin: 3px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); }.tableizer-table th { background-color: rgb(3, 34, 113); color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-weight: bo</style>
            <table class="tableizer-table" align="center" width="70%"><tbody><tr class="tableizer-firstrow"> <th>Year</th><th align="center">2000</th><th align="center">2001</th><th align="center">2002</th><th align="center">2003</th><th align="center">2004</th><th align="center">2005</th><th align="center">2006</th><th align="center">2007</th><th align="center">2008</th><th align="center">2009</th> </tr> <tr> <td>Players’ Percentage of All Revenues</td> <td align="center">56.5</td> <td align="center">52.6</td> <td align="center">51.8</td> <td align="center">50.5</td> <td align="center">52.3</td> <td align="center">51.1</td> <td align="center">52.7</td> <td align="center">51.8</td> <td align="center">51.0</td> <td align="center">50.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Players’ Percentage of "Total Revenue"</td> <td align="center">61.7</td> <td align="center">57.1</td> <td align="center">56.1</td> <td align="center">54.3</td> <td align="center">57.0</td> <td align="center">55.1</td> <td align="center">58.4</td> <td align="center">58.0</td> <td align="center">57.7</td> <td align="center">57.1</td></tr></tbody></table>
            While the big market owners are too busy counting their money hand over fist, the small market owners are just content if they get a small profit. I already posted a link before to the Forbes article showing the ever-growing revenue gap between the top and bottom franchises. There is also a growing pool of non-shared revenue, like luxury boxes, that is helping to increase the salary caps every year, (all revenue generated by the league leads to increased caps), which in turn is causing the low revenue generating teams to fall behind.

            So instead of fixing a broken Revenue Sharing model, these owners are turning to the players for an answer that they can't fix themselves by decreasing money towards salaries, which as the chart shows above, has not increased significantly at all in the past decade.

            This is the main reason why the NFL is in this mess, all the other stuff they talk about is secondary.
            Great point. This issue was talked about even around the time of the last CBA. Some teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, and Dallas just make more money than others. There are a lot of revenue sources that are not shared amongst the teams, yet they still count toward the revenue number used to determine the cap. They just need to fix this issue by giving the players a percent of the revenue that is shared (it would have to be a higher percent than 60 percent in order to not force a paycut. I don't know what percent would make it equal to the current 60 percent. And since the books are locked up tight only the owners can answer that one.)

            Comment

            • dingleberryfinn
              Banned
              • May 2010
              • 1736

              #441
              Re: Official CBA Thread

              any commissioner of any league that has a stike or lockout
              should resign, for failure to commission, imo

              Comment

              • skydog71
                MVP
                • Jul 2004
                • 1772

                #442
                Re: Official CBA Thread

                Assuming this is accurate (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/...ns_Income.html), Tom Brady's $18 million/year salary is bigger than the operating incomes for 9 NFL owners. I know the owners are rich people and have other sources of income... but it still has to bother them that some of the "workers" are making more than the "boss".

                Comment

                • SPTO
                  binging
                  • Feb 2003
                  • 68046

                  #443
                  Re: Official CBA Thread

                  I find it a little hard to believe that the Dolphins are in the red income wise.
                  Member of the Official OS Bills Backers Club

                  "Baseball is the most important thing that doesn't matter at all" - Robert B. Parker

                  Comment

                  • skydog71
                    MVP
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 1772

                    #444
                    Re: Official CBA Thread

                    Originally posted by SPTO
                    I find it a little hard to believe that the Dolphins are in the red income wise.
                    I'm sure there's more to the story. It's possible that the Dolphins owner bought a new $20 million private jet and charged it to the company.

                    Comment

                    • kingkilla56
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Jun 2009
                      • 19395

                      #445
                      Re: Official CBA Thread

                      Originally posted by SPTO
                      I find it a little hard to believe that the Dolphins are in the red income wise.
                      Not surprised. Miami is not a very professional sports dedicated city at all.
                      Tweet Tweet

                      Comment

                      • p_rushing
                        Hall Of Fame
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 14514

                        #446
                        Re: Official CBA Thread

                        Originally posted by kingkilla56
                        Not surprised. Miami is not a very professional sports dedicated city at all.
                        yeah they sell out, but the games are hardly ever full

                        Comment

                        • kjcheezhead
                          MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 3118

                          #447
                          Re: Official CBA Thread

                          Originally posted by skydog71
                          Assuming this is accurate (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/30/...ns_Income.html), Tom Brady's $18 million/year salary is bigger than the operating incomes for 9 NFL owners. I know the owners are rich people and have other sources of income... but it still has to bother them that some of the "workers" are making more than the "boss".

                          Tom Brady's "boss" pulled in $60 million, so I'm sure it bothers Mr. Kraft at all. Also, keep in mind this revenue list is of 2009. That was probably the worst year for the US economy since the Great Depression.

                          The economy is improving, Budwieser just signed on for $2 billion to be the official beer of the NFL and ESPN is prepared to throw a ton of money at the NFL to keep its games. A little more revenue sharing by the owners and I think this whole lockout could've been avoided.

                          Comment

                          • skydog71
                            MVP
                            • Jul 2004
                            • 1772

                            #448
                            Re: Official CBA Thread

                            Originally posted by kjcheezhead
                            Tom Brady's "boss" pulled in $60 million, so I'm sure it bothers Mr. Kraft at all. Also, keep in mind this revenue list is of 2009. That was probably the worst year for the US economy since the Great Depression.

                            The economy is improving, Budwieser just signed on for $2 billion to be the official beer of the NFL and ESPN is prepared to throw a ton of money at the NFL to keep its games. A little more revenue sharing by the owners and I think this whole lockout could've been avoided.
                            It's true that Mr. Kraft probably doesn't care about Tom Brady's salary, but I think it's important to note that some of the owners aren't doing as well as Mr. Kraft. When people say that the "owners" need to give the players more money, they are really talking about the rich owners like Jones and Snyder. Those are the only owners who have any money to share. And while I'm sure Jerry Jones doesn't have a problem with giving HIS players more money (ie - eliminate salary cap), he's going to be opposed to any sort of deal where he is forced to share money with the poorer teams. If the players don't agree to a paycut, we might be looking at a situation where the salary cap and floor are taken away. That would make the players happy (more money) and the owners happy (can spend what they want)... and it would make the fans of small market teams really, really sad.

                            Comment

                            • mestevo
                              Gooney Goo Goo
                              • Apr 2010
                              • 19556

                              #449
                              Re: Official CBA Thread

                              I don't see the cap/floor going away, but it really looks like the union is pushing for the cap to go up a ton. The owners approach is to increase is gradually, something like $20m over the next 4 years, and increase the other forms of compensation like benefits, guarantees in the event of an injury, retired pension going up ~60%, etc. Also they were spelling out rules to make it so that large contracts of players who you can cut later don't count towards the cap floor once that player is cut, so that money will still be spent on player salaries.

                              Problem with the owners proposal is it doesn't factor players into league growth, if the league continues to grow these programs are all by set amounts, rather than a percentage of revenue, so players feel they're being kept out of additional revenue that could also be split.

                              Comment

                              • Rocky
                                All Star
                                • Jul 2002
                                • 6896

                                #450
                                Re: Official CBA Thread

                                Originally posted by mestevo
                                I don't see the cap/floor going away, but it really looks like the union is pushing for the cap to go up a ton. The owners approach is to increase is gradually, something like $20m over the next 4 years, and increase the other forms of compensation like benefits, guarantees in the event of an injury, retired pension going up ~60%, etc. Also they were spelling out rules to make it so that large contracts of players who you can cut later don't count towards the cap floor once that player is cut, so that money will still be spent on player salaries.

                                Problem with the owners proposal is it doesn't factor players into league growth, if the league continues to grow these programs are all by set amounts, rather than a percentage of revenue, so players feel they're being kept out of additional revenue that could also be split.
                                If I were the union, pushing for teams to honor signing bonuses would be a priority. Unless a player is imprisoned or banned for an illegal substance, teams shouldn't be able to touch money that's already been paid out.
                                "Maybe I can't win. But to beat me, he's going to have to kill me. And to kill me, he's gonna have to have the heart to stand in front of me. And to do that, he's got to be willing to die himself. I don't know if he's ready to do that."
                                -Rocky Balboa

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