*** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

[Pared]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Their decisions have already happened. You're mistaking now for the past.

What they are doing has already been decided. Your "free will" "now" is the same thing that you think you did in the "past."

Even if you think NOW I'm going to change the future, that's what you were supposed to do and it makes no difference. You had that same decision in the past and your actions are just playing out how they are supposed to.

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Also, the Other didn't say Lilly. He said Ellie. As in Eloise Hawking.

Man, my hearing is bad. Both my wife and I thought he said "Neely".

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Whether they are spectators or not, they are experiencing it. It's happened and their present selves are going through that period of time. So, yes, they can debate it because that's what they will always do.

I'm not sure what's holding you back from seeing that. Maybe it's that you saw 2004 happen before 1977 and you're trying to understand how things could happen in 2004 and then happen in 1977.

You have to see that the story is being shown to us (the audience) backwards. We saw the future before we saw the past. I think you mentioned a history book. I think that's a fair analogy. Lost is a history book. We flipped to page 815 before reading page 42. Now we're reading page 42.

But, that's just for events. For the Losties, page 42 is later in their life and page 815 happened first. That's their present life experience. Ah, I can't explain it. Miles couldn't even make it clear for everyone. It's probably gonna be one of those things that makes more sense as you watch and see things unfold.

However, they do make their own decisions. They are always making their own decisions. That being said, the decisions they make are the decisions they always make. So when Jack decides not to help Ben, that always happens. Jack not helping Ben is why Sawyer and Kate bring him to Alpert. That's why Ben becomes the man he is today. And that can also be attributed to Sayid shooting Ben. Of course, if you want, you can even go farther back (in our story) and say that Jack makes that decision because of what he knows. So, Ben becoming a murderer is the reason Jack refuses to help the younger him. And Ben becomes a murderer because Jack refuses to help the younger him.

It can be confusing, but it really makes sense when you stop thinking of time as one straight line.

Also, you keep bringing up two time lines. I think that's the reason why this is confusing or just feels flat out wrong. I know you want to stick to your two timeline theory, but I'm telling you, there's only one and it's not even a line.

[Coug00]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Their decisions have already happened. You're mistaking now for the past.

What they are doing has already been decided. Your "free will" "now" is the same thing that you think you did in the "past."

Even if you think NOW I'm going to change the future, that's what you were supposed to do and it makes no difference. You had that same decision in the past and your actions are just playing out how they are supposed to.

Correct. The O6 in '77 are experiencing it, but they don't realize the decisions they're making as they traveled back to '77 are the decisions they already made because they haven't experienced them yet.

Jack didn't change anything by ignoring Ben. That was the decision he already made in '77, he's simply experiencing it for the first time. Sayid always shot Ben, he's just experiencing it for the first time.

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Whether they are spectators or not, they are experiencing it. It's happened and their present selves are going through that period of time. So, yes, they can debate it because that's what they will always do.

I'm not sure what's holding you back from seeing that. Maybe it's that you saw 2004 happen before 1977 and you're trying to understand how things could happen in 2004 and then happen in 1977.

You have to see that the story is being shown to us (the audience) backwards. We saw the future before we saw the past. I think you mentioned a history book. I think that's a fair analogy. Lost is a history book. We flipped to page 815 before reading page 42. Now we're reading page 42.

But, that's just for events. For the Losties, page 42 is later in their life and page 815 happened first. That's their present life experience. Ah, I can't explain it. Miles couldn't even make it clear for everyone. It's probably gonna be one of those things that makes more sense as you watch and see things unfold.

However, they do make their own decisions. They are always making their own decisions. That being said, the decisions they make are the decisions they always make. So when Jack decides not to help Ben, that always happens. Jack not helping Ben is why Sawyer and Kate bring him to Alpert. That's why Ben becomes the man he is today. And that can also be attributed to Sayid shooting Ben. Of course, if you want, you can even go farther back (in our story) and say that Jack makes that decision because of what he knows. So, Ben becoming a murderer is the reason Jack refuses to help the younger him. And Ben becomes a murderer because Jack refuses to help the younger him.

It can be confusing, but it really makes sense when you stop thinking of time as one straight line.

Also, you keep bringing up two time lines. I think that's the reason why this is confusing or just feels flat out wrong. I know you want to stick to your two timeline theory, but I'm telling you, there's only one and it's not even a line.

I agree wholeheartedly with your theory. I've been saying the same thing (more or less) since the ending of Season 4.

In the end, the twist will be the age old question of which came first; The Chicken or the Egg?

Like you said, was Jack's decision not to help the reason for Ben turning into what he did? Or was he always a monster, that prompted the 1977 events, which in turn made Ben a monster?

Until proven otherwise, I'm going to continue believing their lives are more like a record that goes around and around. Sure, it might jump tracks, but it's the same record and it never ends.
Maybe all the times this show has focused on a record player, or used it as a way to describe what's happening. Because that's the final answer. The Losties have always belonged to the island and will forever be linked to it throughout eternity. It's just that in some past lives, it's on track 1, while in another it's on track 9.

I believe we'll find out that the Losties will procreate, creating the Hostiles (and Richard Halpert) and perhaps some of the Dharma people (who leave the island) and eventually become the Losties.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

forget it. Already said.

[Pared]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Correct. The O6 in '77 are experiencing it, but they don't realize the decisions they're making as they traveled back to '77 are the decisions they already made because they haven't experienced them yet.

Jack didn't change anything by ignoring Ben. That was the decision he already made in '77, he's simply experiencing it for the first time. Sayid always shot Ben, he's just experiencing it for the first time.

Exactly.

This is how this all finally makes sense. It explains why Ben doesn't remember Sayid; It explains why the Losties have no recollection of the island.

For once, that entire episode made complete sense. The discussion b/w Hurley and Miles was the key, and why I loved the episode so much!

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Okay, I just watched the last part of the show again and it sure sounds like "Neely".
That's 5x I've listened to it and it sounds a lot more like "Neely" than "Nellie" or "Ellie".

Can someone else watch it and let me know what they think?

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

I believe we'll find out that the Losties will procreate, creating the Hostiles (and Richard Halpert) and perhaps some of the Dharma people (who leave the island) and eventually become the Losties.

I think now that I've been understanding the story and how Lost is telling time, it makes it possible for me to accept that sort of comment.

I always heard the "They are in an endless loop" and the reasoning seemed far-fetched. I think people were on the right track (you included) but there was missing information back in S3 or S4 that made it difficult to support the theory. Also, some of the theories online were just bananas (not yours). They talked about skipping records and an endless loop but it was supported by loads of theories that never materialized.

I think now there are things we can point to and say this is why that theory makes sense. And now, though you bring up something that could seem implausible, there's nothing right now that can detract from the possibility unless we see something different.

For all we know, the Losties could jump back to 1642 in 1984. And they could then be members of Black Rock on a voyage to find the Island they miss so dearly.

[CMH]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Okay, I just watched the last part of the show again and it sure sounds like "Neely".
That's 5x I've listened to it and it sounds a lot more like "Neely" than "Nellie" or "Ellie".

Can someone else watch it and let me know what they think?

I heard Ellie the first and only time.

[Pared]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

If someone has it DVR'd, just turn on the closed captioning.

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

For all we know, the Losties could jump back to 1642 in 1984. And they could then be members of Black Rock on a voyage to find the Island they miss so dearly.

Was it last year where they showed Charles Widemore buying that diary from the captain of the Black Rock?
Who knows if they reveal that inside there's an entry from a Richard Alpert or a Jack Sheppard.

At this point, with the creation of the time traveling, the writers can basically say whatever they want.
They've also created a nice loophole for themselves when they introduced the temple and Alpert saying "He won't remember any of this". That might explain why none of the Losties would remember ever being there before.

I'm not saying this theory is what will happen, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me at this point. I'm open to other theories as well and for all we know, all of them could end up being right. lol.

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

If someone has it DVR'd, just turn on the closed captioning.

Great idea. I'm going to try it tonight. Thanks Pared!

[fistofrage]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Whether they are spectators or not, they are experiencing it. It's happened and their present selves are going through that period of time. So, yes, they can debate it because that's what they will always do.

I'm not sure what's holding you back from seeing that. Maybe it's that you saw 2004 happen before 1977 and you're trying to understand how things could happen in 2004 and then happen in 1977.

You have to see that the story is being shown to us (the audience) backwards. We saw the future before we saw the past. I think you mentioned a history book. I think that's a fair analogy. Lost is a history book. We flipped to page 815 before reading page 42. Now we're reading page 42.

But, that's just for events. For the Losties, page 42 is later in their life and page 815 happened first. That's their present life experience. Ah, I can't explain it. Miles couldn't even make it clear for everyone. It's probably gonna be one of those things that makes more sense as you watch and see things unfold.

However, they do make their own decisions. They are always making their own decisions. That being said, the decisions they make are the decisions they always make. So when Jack decides not to help Ben, that always happens. Jack not helping Ben is why Sawyer and Kate bring him to Alpert. That's why Ben becomes the man he is today. And that can also be attributed to Sayid shooting Ben. Of course, if you want, you can even go farther back (in our story) and say that Jack makes that decision because of what he knows. So, Ben becoming a murderer is the reason Jack refuses to help the younger him. And Ben becomes a murderer because Jack refuses to help the younger him.

It can be confusing, but it really makes sense when you stop thinking of time as one straight line.

Also, you keep bringing up two time lines. I think that's the reason why this is confusing or just feels flat out wrong. I know you want to stick to your two timeline theory, but I'm telling you, there's only one and it's not even a line.

Right, I agree with what you are saying but because the decisions they make are set in stone and we'll see that as the story of Ben unfolds.

The way I look at it is you are really seeing the story of Ben Linus unfold. That story will carry a chronological timeline. We'll see(or maybe not see but at least it will be implied) his life. We know when and how he born, we know how he got to the island, we know how he got to the hostiles, and we know how he destroyed Dharma, then there is a chunk of time we'll learn about how he became a leader and met up with the Losties on flight 815. We know what happened there between 2004 and 2007. Now we need to have some more time filled in. Its almost right now the Losties aren't the main focus because what they are doing in 1977 doesn't really have any consequence as far as we can tell, we're not watching what they are going to do next, we're watching what they have already done if you are looking at the story from the Ben perspective.

When the story gets back into to present time, we'll be looking at the Losties with Free Will to make their own decisions that impact things.

Its almost like watching a sports replay and screaming at the baserunner to slide. He was out no matter what he did and you already know that. When it gets back to real time the next batter comes up and now you have no idea whats going to happen. Only when they all get back to 2007 or whatever you want to call the present will the Losties have free will to make an impact.

So yeah, no 2 timelines. 1 timeline, pretty clear by Ben not dying. After last episode I started looking at this like the Benjamin Linus "this is your life" and not "I wonder what the Losties will do next".

But eventually everything will get back to present day and we'll have a good old fashioned show down. Nothing that we are seeing that is done in the past can prevent Ben from laying on that Cot, talking to Locke that we saw at the end of the episode last night(assuming that is absolute present time).

[Money99]

Re: *** LOST: Season 5 Discussion***

Great idea. I'm going to try it tonight. Thanks Pared!

Just watched online with CC on and it's "Ellie".
So it's official, my hearing sucks.