Westworld (HBO)

[CMH]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

Ive finished episode 5.

can someone tell me where in this thread is before episode 6???
thnaks

Episode 6 aired 11/06 so anything before then was through episode 5

Stop at Post #156

[HealyMonster]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

I'm going to comment on all of this because I love this show and I'm happy there's someone here that seems to be enjoying it as much as I do.

I think we are to assume that it is indeed Ford as part of his new narrative.

The moment that really hits hard that I think the show did a poor job of really emphasizing is Maeve's directive when she steps on the train. If you can find a screenshot, it says that once she gets off the train, her job is to infiltrate the outside world.

But as part of Ford's narrative, he has given the hosts complete free will. So Maeve stepping off the train is her exhibiting it fully for the first time.

I think this will be a thing for a while but I'm going to side with Felix is a human. There's too much of Maeve trying to tell him he's a human that makes me believe the writers were really trying to knock us on the head to make sure we really get it.

I do love his robot though. Hilarious moment.

Felix hands Maeve a note telling her where her daughter is. That note specifically states she's in Park 1 which would indicate there's more than one park. Obviously, we know there's a Samurai World, though we don't know if it's in production or fully running.

I don't know if more parks will be part of the main story, but I wouldn't be surprised if their existence plays a part in the robot revolution.

The writing on this show has been really good even when it seems it's not. When Evan Rachel Wood, Jimmi Simpson and Jeffrey Wright made comments about everything being out there since the early episodes, they really meant it. I'm sure some things have been forgotten over the span of two months.

Early in the season Ford makes a comment to Bernard (I believe) that the humans that visit the park did not take the hosts and the point of building such a luxurious place seriously. Instead of engaging in the dynamics of the storylines, humans wanted to **** and kill everything on sight.

Was hard to notice it then because Ford had been such a conniving fellow throughout the series, but that told us everything we needed to know about Ford.

He hated that humans ruined everything he and Arnold had hoped for Westworld.

So the series weaved this intricate misleading story that led us to think that Ford and Arnold were rivals. They were actually merely in disagreement. But what's important is that Ford has known for a while that Arnold was right. It's why he started the narrative.

Arnold felt Westworld was a place for the hosts. And he felt the hosts were a much better species than the humans. Even Ford comments over and over and over again to Bernard that he shouldn't trust humans, humans kill everything, humans lie, humans are simply terrible terrible creatures.

This narrative was Ford acknowledging Arnold's belief. The disagreement however was in how quickly Arnold wanted to push the hosts. He didn't want to open the park. He wanted hosts to be the dominant species immediately. Ford, however, knew it wouldn't be that easy. If the hosts were viewed as targets early in their inception, they would be destroyed by humans.

So Ford used Arnold's reveries and created a new layer of the pyramid: suffering. He says this in the final episode to Bernard when telling him why he gave him the memory of his son dying. While Arnold thought it was the bicameral mind, Ford knew that suffering is what would drive the hosts to becoming sentient. And he knew that the suffering would give them every reason to hate humans.

Everything Ford did, everything he said was to drive home the point. He told Dolores he wasn't her friend because he didn't want her thinking she should be friends with humans. He reminded Bernard constantly not to trust humans. He allowed humans to rape and slaughter because he knew that the hosts would remember every detail.

It simply took him 35 years, as he said, to see it was time for the new narrative: a robot revolution.

I think in the beginning Ford got lucky. He saw what happened to William and knew that without Dolores Westworld would have been closed. But William says he kept coming back to the park and falling further away from feeling anything for her. He knew she was just another piece of code, another storyline. His interest for her faded over the years. He says as much to her before they fight and he stabs her.

William kept the park open because he felt that Arnold had something better in his pocket and William wanted to find out what it was. So he put up with the crap in search of whatever it was. Eventually he stumbled on the maze and over time he figured out that Wyatt would be the answer to the maze. Unfortunately, he also discovered that the maze was just another boring game. In the end, the hosts still just did whatever they were told and William would be bored forever.

Except, Ford knew what William always wanted. And the new narrative was that very thing. William getting shot was Ford's tip of the hat to him. William smiling was him happy to see that finally the hosts were real.

I like this theory. It's why I put up that picture of the hand shake. If you didn't notice the first time, Ford extends his hand in a weird way. Is that how Ford shakes hands, or is it an earlier nod to how you could tell the hosts weren't real early on from a simple hand shake? Questions.

I think Stubbs is alive. I think Elsie is alive. I'm sure we'll find out in Season 2.

William is alive. I don't think the hosts were going to kill him. If anything, it's more possible they'll live him be so he can witness what he always wanted: robot's fighting back.

Yeah, this was a true Walter White from chemistry professor to druglord. I've seen complaints that the turn happened too quickly, but I disagree. I think they had to show us how much the park really changed him.

It's going to be such a looooong wait...ugh

this is an epic recap man. I watched every episode, and like really had no clue about some of this deep stuff. random OS post is the most brilliant season 1 recap ever made.

[Splitter77]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

finished this last nite.
loved it. but they shouldnt make a second season.
im probsbly not gonna like it as much.
probably be total chaos and destruction. and everything is known now.
i like the flashbacks and different timelines of the first season. and not knowing whats happening.
they shouldve just left it at that after season 1

[LionsFanNJ]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

They have a five season story arc planned out.

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[Money99]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

They have a five season story arc planned out.

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

Exactly.
Knowing that the writers were planning on 50 episodes and judging by the first 10, I can only imagine what's in store for the next 40.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

I powered through this season this weekend. I'm not sure I understand every intricacy and nuisance in the show. But no matter what happened I couldn't help but think to myself "but they're robots, so who cares what happens to them?". I just couldn't connect to the hosts much at all. No matter how sentient the show tried to convince me they were, I just couldn't empathize with them. Because I always knew they are robots, layers and layers of code. By the finale when the robots massacred the guards behind the scenes and presumably massacred the humans at the celebration, I felt bad for the humans.

Idk.

[jake44np]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

I powered through this season this weekend. I'm not sure I understand every intricacy and nuisance in the show. But no matter what happened I couldn't help but think to myself "but they're robots, so who cares what happens to them?". I just couldn't connect to the hosts much at all. No matter how sentient the show tried to convince me they were, I just couldn't empathize with them. Because I always knew they are robots, layers and layers of code. By the finale when the robots massacred the guards behind the scenes and presumably massacred the humans at the celebration, I felt bad for the humans.

Idk.

Totally agree and well said.
I know there is a 5 year plan, but I am out.
I enjoyed this season especially the last few episodes but I am satisfied with just one season.
I really don't think I will enjoy the remaining seasons and there are too many other good shows I need to watch.

[kingkilla56]

Westworld (HBO)

Yeah it was a very well crafted show with twist after twist nuance after nuance. A typical Bad Robot produced show. I just couldn't connect with the characters they wanted me to. No matter how human the robots get, they're just robots to me. So the message, or rather subject of the show is inherently lost on me.

It was an enjoyable season for me nonetheless. I don't regret getting into it, and may be back next season. But not a show Id try very hard to convince anybody else to see.

[AshamanCarnage]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

Totally agree and well said.
I know there is a 5 year plan, but I am out.
I enjoyed this season especially the last few episodes but I am satisfied with just one season.
I really don't think I will enjoy the remaining seasons and there are too many other good shows I need to watch.

I never felt sympathy for the hosts and didn't connect with any of them throughout the season but I never felt it detracted from me enjoying the story being told or deter me from finding out how it all pans out.

[CMH]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

The point that's being missed is that's the show.

"They are only robots."
That's exactly what humans feel in this series. And because they only see the hosts as robots they don't see that the robots are conscious of their suffering.

The question that makes the show is, does the memory of suffering make something real?

It's why people ask these questions of animals or babies. You may look at it today and say, "um, they are real living things, of course it matters." Yet that's not how it always was with humanity. Can we say it was how some segment of humanity viewed slaves? (Any kind of slaves, not trying to make it about race in America). Can we not consider it's the question that came up when "discovering" indigenous people?

Ford constantly reminded Bernard that humanity has been awful to other things it has viewed as less than or non human. He brings up at one point the Neanderthal and how it came to be extinct.

Obviously there will be two sides to the argument. The hosts are real because they suffer. Or the hosts are only layers of code essentially told to suffer.

But they suffer. And that's the point. Because they suffer we must ask ourselves, do they live?

If you don't want to ask yourself that question while watching the show, you shouldn't watch it because that's the show.

[Boltman]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

The point that's being missed is that's the show.

"They are only robots."
That's exactly what humans feel in this series. And because they only see the hosts as robots they don't see that the robots are conscious of their suffering.

The question that makes the show is, does the memory of suffering make something real?

It's why people ask these questions of animals or babies. You may look at it today and say, "um, they are real living things, of course it matters." Yet that's not how it always was with humanity. Can we say it was how some segment of humanity viewed slaves? (Any kind of slaves, not trying to make it about race in America). Can we not consider it's the question that came up when "discovering" indigenous people?

Ford constantly reminded Bernard that humanity has been awful to other things it has viewed as less than or non human. He brings up at one point the Neanderthal and how it came to be extinct.

Obviously there will be two sides to the argument. The hosts are real because they suffer. Or the hosts are only layers of code essentially told to suffer.

But they suffer. And that's the point. Because they suffer we must ask ourselves, do they live?

If you don't want to ask yourself that question while watching the show, you shouldn't watch it because that's the show.

Yea, I always thought the main issue at hand for the show was if the hosts indeed have developed true consciousness/sentience.

[kingkilla56]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

The point that's being missed is that's the show.

"They are only robots."
That's exactly what humans feel in this series. And because they only see the hosts as robots they don't see that the robots are conscious of their suffering.

The question that makes the show is, does the memory of suffering make something real?

It's why people ask these questions of animals or babies. You may look at it today and say, "um, they are real living things, of course it matters." Yet that's not how it always was with humanity. Can we say it was how some segment of humanity viewed slaves? (Any kind of slaves, not trying to make it about race in America). Can we not consider it's the question that came up when "discovering" indigenous people?

Ford constantly reminded Bernard that humanity has been awful to other things it has viewed as less than or non human. He brings up at one point the Neanderthal and how it came to be extinct.

Obviously there will be two sides to the argument. The hosts are real because they suffer. Or the hosts are only layers of code essentially told to suffer.

But they suffer. And that's the point. Because they suffer we must ask ourselves, do they live?

If you don't want to ask yourself that question while watching the show, you shouldn't watch it because that's the show.

My response got a bit long winded.

Spoiler

I thought I made my answer to that question pretty clear. Not sure why you're putting ultimatums on my viewing.

They are robots. Programmed from top to bottom. They are not alive, they are simulating life. Every time a host was experiencing grief, turmoil, anger, sorrow, any emotion, Ford could simply stop it right in its tracks. That's NOT living. Now Ford presumably gave up all power and gave the robots free will, or did he? He programmed them to escape, he programmed them to alter their own settings, he programmed them to get on, then off the train, he programmed them to attack visitors the same way he program them never to harm visitors. These things don't make the hosts human. These things make Ford and Arnold gods of their own creation. Everything a host does is ultimately decided by Ford, or whoever has authority over them based on, their coding.

Much like the hosts are simulating life, Ford is simulating God. And not only is he simulating that with his robots, he's now passing judgment on the humans in his park, behind the scenes, everywhere by giving his creations free reign to murder humans, literally making hosts kill left and right at the snap of his fingers. Anyone that gets in his way, he makes a host slaughter. What about that is living? That's God power. That automatically makes Ford the very evil **** he's complaining to Robot Arnold about. He's a hypocrite God wannabe.

So no, "they feel sorrow, so do they live?" isn't THE question the show is asking. That is one amongst many.

But for me personally, Westworld isn't a debate about "Anabelle cries when her programmed backstory flares up, does that make her human now?" It's a conversation about man and what lengths he'll go to for absolute control. Whether it's Ford (and/or Arnold) controlling the fate of his puppets or it's the board member's ambitions for the hosts beyond Westworld. That's what I'm interested in seeing.

And a part of me wants to include the hosts in that. What lengths will a host go to to gain absolute control over itself, to become man? Perhaps that's what season two will dive into. But season one didn't scratch that surface for me until Ford got shot. NOW they can dig into that concept. Because with Ford, there was no chance of the robots ever having free will. Now that he's dead, and they have no strings, we can explore that concept. But right now they are slaughtering humans based on concepts Ford put in their minds. With him gone, will they learn, have pity, have understanding, reason? We will see.

[CMH]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

Huh? I didn't put any ultimatums on anyone's viewing. Guys did that themselves by saying they have no interest in more seasons.

All I did was say if you don't want to watch a certain type of show, you shouldn't watch it.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

My take on it was that certain hosts' self awareness of being programmed and controlled, and wanting to be able to change that, is a form of consciousness.

Now if you don't consider them "alive" because of their lack of free will, or because they're made of something different on the inside than humans, I think that's a different argument.

I enjoy the philosophical questions that the characters are faced with, about existence and consciousness.

I also wonder whether Dolores killing Ford was part of Ford's final story that he programmed, or if it was a first step in the hosts taking control with free will.

Maybe the scenes were just meant to throw us off, because they could be memories that were programmed as part of Ford's final story, but Dolores seemed to "get it" before she went to kill Ford. It was like he gave her the tools, but also gave her a choice. Though he also seemed to know what was coming, which makes me question that theory.

[Bmore Irish]

Re: Westworld (HBO)

I also don't think Ford is necessarily followed in the footsteps of Arnold. He came to the same realization about consciousness, but he still wanted to control them for his own gain. He's a narcissist, and while I believe Arnold died because of his own compassion and empathy (and of course, grief), I believe Ford is motivated more by revenge, and anger.