15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

[mgoblue]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

2 guys making a drug deal are minding their own business?

Technically, yeah. They could be sitting in a car doing a drug deal, and as long as it's public property there's no valid probable cause for the cops to stop them. Any evidence gathered from that illegal stop would then be considered "fruit from a poisonous tree" and not be admissible in court.

[keRplunK]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

2 guys making a drug deal are minding their own business?

It's subjective depending on how you view drug use and drug dealing...that's a different topic. But if two people are doing whatever in the parking lot, as long as they aren't directly effecting others in that area they are minding their own business. Whether it's drug dealing or exchanging xbox 360 games.

[mgoblue]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

It's subjective depending on how you view drug use and drug dealing...that's a different topic. But if two people are doing whatever in the parking lot, as long as they aren't directly effecting others in that area they are minding their own business. Whether it's drug dealing or exchanging xbox 360 games.

Exactly! Sure, if it's obvious (handing over massive bags of weed or coke) that's a different case, but you can't just walk up on a parked car and search.

[trobinson97]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

She obviously was a threat, she bit him, which brought him harm. And she was quite hysterical. As I said, although unlikely, she could have grabbed for his gun as well. You guys really do not understand how police work is. I'm a civvy like the rest of you but i've studied and worked with Police as a potential career so I do like to think I understand things a little better than someone who has not.

Well given that, I'd like to think I'd know more about it than you. I have never been a police officer, but I did spend 4 years in the service. I never had to detain a person in a real world situation (did participate in the diffusion of a small riot in S. Korea though, no one got punched either but to be fair, there were no 15 year old girls around) but I have had plenty of training in preparation for it, enough to know at least, it wouldn't have taken punch to the face of a little girl to get her under control.

Lol, and that in no way is meant to be taken as I know as much about it as a regular cop, but I'm not talking down telling people how their civvy minds work and such. I have no idea what you guys have done for work or experienced unless, like in this case, you tell me.

If it was my daughter or my sister, I would have been embarrassed by her actions.

So would I, no doubt. I even cringed a little just from watching this girl.

I called her a skank, which, obviously, is a subjective term.

From wikipedia:

Skank is slang and a pejorative term used in English to describe a certain type of female. [1][2] The term "Skank" differs from that of "Slut" in that whereas the latter implies only sexual promiscuity; the former also implies poor taste, personally degrading behaviour and low socioeconomic class.

I came to that conclusion because of not only her gaunt and shabby looking physical appearance and taste in clothes but her behavior as well. Again, it's only my personal opinion and it has nothing to do with how (or in what fashion) the officer should have responded. It was just an observation because someone else said they found her sexually attractive.

Ah, so it was just prejudice, that makes more sense to me.

It's wikipedia's definition.

And you're using it to somehow support you reasoning for calling her one. So it might as well be your's.

[realtalktruth]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

wow! i cannot be a police officer at all, because if that was me......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irunPYd7McY

"somebody's gonna get a hurting, somebody's gonna get a hurt real bad"

[jim416]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

Exactly! Sure, if it's obvious (handing over massive bags of weed or coke) that's a different case, but you can't just walk up on a parked car and search.

There's also a thing called reasonable suspicion. You can walk up to a parked car, knock on the window and say something like "can I talk to you". It's called a consensual contact. If the driver rolls down the window you can converse with him as much as you want. You can even say something like, "you don't have any drugs in there, do you?"

If the driver says "no", you can even say, "do you mind if I search your car?". If the driver declines and you have no probable cause you can't search. If he says "yes, you can search" (believe me I've had drug dealers say just that), then you can search. If you find drugs, BUSTED, no fruit of the poison tree here, completely valid search.

If you approach a car and "smell" marijuana, you can search the entire car.

[McLite]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

Technically, yeah. They could be sitting in a car doing a drug deal, and as long as it's public property there's no valid probable cause for the cops to stop them. Any evidence gathered from that illegal stop would then be considered "fruit from a poisonous tree" and not be admissible in court.

If somebody is in a public place, even sitting in a car, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy. They have a windshield, which an officer can easily see into the car without any sort of devices whatsoever. What can be seen is in plain view/sight. That right there is probable cause where upon I don't need consent/warrant.

Reasonable suspicion is all I need to make contact with some. That occurs when facts and circumstances state that the person has, is, or is about to be involved in some sort of crime. Example I am cruising around and see a guy get out of a car stuff something that looks like a gun in his pocket and a ski mask in the other and approach a 7-11.

Probable cause is when I have reasonable belief that a crime has been committed and the party I have in custody has committed it...thus leading to arrest.

Edit...I see Jim answered it as I must have been typing. In his example I can easily call for one of our K-9 dogs since the outside of the car has no reasonable expectation of privacy either. If the dog "hits" then I immediately have probable cause to go inside the vehicle and search.

Just remember the 4th amendment doesn't apply to: open view, standing, dog sniff, trash, abandonment, as well as some others.

[mgoblue]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

There's also a thing called reasonable suspicion. You can walk up to a parked car, knock on the window and say something like "can I talk to you". It's called a consensual contact. If the driver rolls down the window you can converse with him as much as you want. You can even say something like, "you don't have any drugs in there, do you?"

If the driver says "no", you can even say, "do you mind if I search your car?". If the driver declines and you have no probable cause you can't search. If he says "yes, you can search" (believe me I've had drug dealers say just that), then you can search. If you find drugs, BUSTED, no fruit of the poison tree here, completely valid search.

If you approach a car and "smell" marijuana, you can search the entire car.

Depending on the situation the officer did not have probable cause to even approach the car. The officer needs a reason to flash his lights at a parked car. Otherwise police could pull anyone over whenever they wanted and try to smell drugs or alcohol.

[mgoblue]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

If somebody is in a public place, even sitting in a car, they have no reasonable expectation of privacy. They have a windshield, which an officer can easily see into the car without any sort of devices whatsoever. What can be seen is in plain view/sight.

Reasonable suspicion is all I need to make contact with some. That occurs when facts and circumstances state that the person has, is, or is about to be involved in some sort of crime. Example I am cruising around and see a guy get out of a car stuff something that looks like a gun in his pocket and a ski mask in the other and approach a 7-11.

Probable cause is when I have reasonable belief that a crime has been committed and the party I have in custody has committed it...thus leading to arrest.

just saying...One of my friends was parked in a parking lot looking for a cd. He'd been drinking and was driving home (dumb, and he knows that). A cop randomly drove into the parking lot and stopped him (the cop had no reason to stop him). Smelled alcohol, arrested, etc. The judge (the harshest DUI judge in the state, btw) said the stop was illegal. She didn't want to throw out the case but she had to. One of the cases my friend said his lawyer used was something about a drug deal in cars...the cops had no legit reason to go over to the cars.

I don't know the full details, just what my friend told me, but it makes sense. Cops can't just turn on the lights and go at any car without cause. I just learned this much because I thought for sure my friend was getting jail time for 30-60 days, but he got off scot free (thankfully he doesn't drink and drive anymore).

[jim416]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

[QUOTE=keRplunK;2037813685]Too many civilians suffer from police brutality.

[/ QUOTE]

If you take the amount of contacts each cop has with civilians every day the number is miniscule. I would say that during a normal ten hour shift that I had (worked 4 days a week ten hours a day). I would have to say I came in contact with at least 30 individuals per shift, just me. I NEVER had a brutality complaint against me in my 16 years.

These police brutality complaints ARE investigated. Remember a percentage of those are bogus. I don't know one cop that ever wants to go through the investigative routine of these complaints. They stay in your file permanently. If a citizen comes in a complains that a policeman farted during a contact that can go into your personnel jacket also (being a little facetious here, but we don't get away with much).

The hiring standards for police officers has gone down, unfortunately and the weeding out process during field training (the period of time after the academy that an officer is put on the streets with a veteran officer and taught to forget everything he learned in the academy) is frustrating. After fielding training there is a ONE YEAR probationary period where an officer can STILL be fired for no cause, whatsoever.

Taking a young man/woman, strapping a gun to their hips, badge on their chests, and setting them loose on the streets in a patrol car, often by themselves,with the entire world watching, is tough.

It's a heck of a lot tougher than it looks, believe me.

[jim416]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

Matt, looks like you and I posted just about the same time.

[mgoblue]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

It all just depends on the situaition...I just know what I've seen someone get off of because a lack of probable cause...

Honestly it just proves how tough it is to be a cop...all these judgement calls, nothing is black and white. No way I could do that, and I really respect those that do!

[jim416]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

Depending on the situation the officer did not have probable cause to even approach the car. The officer needs a reason to flash his lights at a parked car. Otherwise police could pull anyone over whenever they wanted and try to smell drugs or alcohol.

An officer can approach any car/any person anytime he wants. He is allowed to have consentual contacts. You don't need probable cause to approach someone. Heck, you can even approach a man walking on the street, say "hi, how's it going". If the guy stops, you ask him "can I see your i.d." and he produces it, there is no civil right violation. You must be careful though because you don't want it construed as a "detention", but it is used to go further, find reasonable suspicion, or probable cause. Tools a smart officer needs to know how to use.

All the guy has to do is say, "no" and walk away.

If you're talking about flashing the red/blue overheads, perhaps, but not always. Does an officer need probable cause to pull over a car, yes. And it can be the most chickencrap vehicle code violation he can find. Whatever works.

[McLite]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

just saying...One of my friends was parked in a parking lot looking for a cd. He'd been drinking and was driving home (dumb, and he knows that). A cop randomly drove into the parking lot and stopped him (the cop had no reason to stop him). Smelled alcohol, arrested, etc. The judge (the harshest DUI judge in the state, btw) said the stop was illegal. She didn't want to throw out the case but she had to. One of the cases my friend said his lawyer used was something about a drug deal in cars...the cops had no legit reason to go over to the cars.

I don't know the full details, just what my friend told me, but it makes sense. Cops can't just turn on the lights and go at any car without cause. I just learned this much because I thought for sure my friend was getting jail time for 30-60 days, but he got off scot free (thankfully he doesn't drink and drive anymore).

True, without reasonable suspicion I would have no right to detain that car or person inside. Let's say someone called 911 though and stated they saw your friends car swerving, failing to maintain a lane, and hit a curb. Once I found him, even if parked, I would then have enough RS to stop him. I could conduct a field sobriety test, or use a portable breath test, which would give me probable cause to believe he committed the crime DUI-Liquor, thus leading to arrest. In the state of Nevada even if the car isn't mobile I have enough if he has the keys and is sitting in the car with access to a public roadway.

The fact that is was thrown out sounds ok to me. Cops are humans, humans make mistakes. That is why the lawyers and judges can be so tough, so that the proof is on the state, i.e. officer. Maybe the officer was a rogue "Training Day" cop out to bust people for no reason. More than likely though he was just a regular guy working his shift trying to make an arrest or two before he goes home to his wife and kids, or in my case my girlfriend and my 360. We can screw up too...and as long as it isn't malicious, which I would have to say 99% of the time it isn't, then we just let the lawyers and judges fight it out.

[keRplunK]

Re: 15 yr old girl punched then pepper sprayed, justified.

If you take the amount of contacts each cop has with civilians every day the number is miniscule.

Taking a young man/woman, strapping a gun to their hips, badge on their chests, and setting them loose on the streets in a patrol car, often by themselves,with the entire world watching, is tough.

It's a heck of a lot tougher than it looks, believe me.

Exactly, that's why I've been saying most cops aren't idiots otherwise these would be all over the place everyday.

I believe it's a tough job. But there are idiots in any profession and hard decisions that have to be made quickly and when dealing with a variety of people and situations a lot of different things can happen. But that's part of being a police, and it's why I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I've seen far too many police who escalate situations which could have been avoided and they use things like tasers, pepper spray, etc without reason.