Physical Discipline........

[Scottdau]

Re: Physical Discipline........

He was making one and we all saw it.

The reaction here is to look at it only from the parents view, but why is no one seeing it from his perspective? If we're trying to hold the kid responsible for his actions then his words should also hold the same weight.

This is deep and this will go a long way with me and my parenting. I mean we were all kids once, so why can't we relate with our kids now. I know mine has some emotional problems, because he had a tough birth, but he also has my genes, so he is going to have some emotional problems any ways.

[CMH]

Re: Physical Discipline........

He's a kid

Kids dont chastise parents

Kids dont yell their parents down, especially their mothers

Kids dont point their fingers in a grown ups face

He has no point, he's a child. He's not on her level

Why are kids not allowed to do that?

At what age can you tell someone that you do not feel respected?

The battle between this kid and his mother seems like a mirror to me. The kid talked to his mother the way she talked to him. For a kid to raise his hand to his mother's face probably means he's felt the same pain. Why is it ok for her to put her hand on his face, but not the other way around? Because that's what he was saying to her. He asked her if she liked how it felt.

Does he have to physically demonstrate his anger? No. He shouldn't. But, it seems to me that he is raised in a household where demonstrating your anger through physical means is the objective to making a point. If mother hits child to discipline, child hits others to discipline. And it is beyond obvious that this kid isn't your typical child. He is self-aware. He understands the entire situation. So, his objective is to discipline his mother. Again, discipline me with pain and my only recourse is to do the same because it is all I know.

When he is twenty one years old, does this argument get any different? I bet it doesn't. He'll still voice his same displeasure and mom won't listen to his words. This is a problem for both parties. We want to look at the kid as the issue because society says kids should respect the elders, but kids are smarter than we give them credit for, especially in this day. If a child feels disrespected, he has every right to tell someone. Switch this mother with a random abusive twenty five year old and I bet most people's opinions change dramatically.

[MassNole]

Re: Physical Discipline........

Our 17 month old is going through a hitting phase right now, at this age physical discipline to correct that would constitute child abuse as he is too young to understand why it is happening. Anyone who would raise a hand to a toddler deserves to spend an hour in the Octagon with Brock Lesnar and Anderson Silva in a handicap match. As of now our prescribed method of discipline is to use timeouts.

In Massachusetts spanking is still allowed, but under a very precise set of circumstances according to the SJC. I haven't read the case in 4 years, but the standard is generally it can not be done out of anger, meaning a calm down period is basically needed before the spanking can occur. The SJC found no criminality when it was done open handed over a clothed bottom when the reason for it was explained. In that case, it was a Minister who explained to his child he was being spanked for his actions after a timeout.

I can agree with that standard, but honestly too many people are too stupid to follow those rules. As for that video if the child hit his mother, unless some psychological testing shows the kid is a sociopath, then I would infer he was previously hit by his mother. As such comments degrading the child are grossly misplaced. He did as he learned to do.

As for my opinion, my wife and I have come up with a very narrow list of things that would lead to a spanking, the only one in my head right now would be if he made a b-line towards the road after being told no. Our logic is that the spanking should reinforce the severity of his actions in running at the road, especially since we live on one of the 3 busiest streets in our town and we frequently have emergency vehicles flying by.

[slimm44]

Re: Physical Discipline........

Our 17 month old is going through a hitting phase right now, at this age physical discipline to correct that would constitute child abuse as he is too young to understand why it is happening. Anyone who would raise a hand to a toddler deserves to spend an hour in the Octagon with Brock Lesnar and Anderson Silva in a handicap match. As of now our prescribed method of discipline is to use timeouts.

In your opinion, how is a 17 month old able to better understand time-out, a completely abstract concept, rather than spanking, a completely concrete one?

[DaveDQ]

Re: Physical Discipline........

I have a slightly different take on this one.

First, I'll say that I don't agree with the kid slapping his mom or telling her to shut up. His entire attitude is unacceptable.

However, I wonder if his mother is really listening to him. Look, I'm not saying that all of his words are 100% truth. Kids will stretch the truth. They will lie if it benefits them, but from what I gathered, this is a one-on-one with his mom. There is no benefit for him to express his feelings but to tell his mom how he actually feels.

I'm looking past his attitude and behavior and listening to his words and then looking at how the mother reacts to all of it and I think she seriously needs help. And not help to protect herself from him, but help on learning how to raise a child.

As much as it is true that a mother is a child's boss, when you tell a kid (especially one that is capable of understanding that a mother's threat is mostly verbal unless she wants to face criminal charges): "I am your boss," you are not giving your child the opportunity to respect you.

That kid said it straight out: "I am in control of my body. I can do what I want when I want." And he's right. No one can tell him what to do when he doesn't want to. No one can tell anyone what to do. The only reason we don't do what society believes is unacceptable is because we know there are consequences or we acknowledge the damage it may cause another person.

His mother's response is: "I am your boss." That's not effective at all. That's akin to telling someone that wants to achieve a dream that they have no chance. Think about something you're extremely passionate about and imagine someone telling you: "You won't ever achieve that goal!" It may not be your initial reaction, but eventually you're going to say: "Yes, I can and I'll prove you wrong."

Now, subtract 10, 20, 30 years from your life and put yourself in that kid's position. Do you think your mother is going to get across to you with that message?

When kids act out there is usually a very good reason for it. The truth is kids want structure. They desire it because they are lost and confused. But, they also want to be respected and I have a hard time believing this mother respects her son. Again, he is going about it all wrong but he's a kid and he obviously doesn't know any better. He's lost complete respect for his mother (he basically said it repeatedly and showed it by slapping her). She's lost him and before I look at the kid and say he's just a bad seed, I'm hearing this kid out. I think he has a point.

I agree that she has lost him and there are several reasons why this may have happened. This didn't happen over night. This boy has been allowed to act a certain way from day one. In parenting, either the parents are directing or the child is. In the situation with the boy and his mother, there has been no identifier that says the mother directs. There could be numerous reasons. Inconsistency in parenting is a major one. In one moment a child is allowed to eat candy before dinner. In another the parent says, "Here..if this shuts you up, eat the candy." The next day you can be assured that child will ask for candy.

Undisciplined parents raise undisciplined children. Take spanking out of the equation. Even if you use time outs, you have to use them in a way that the child knows why he is in time out and that when he uses such behavior he will always end up in a time out. When a parent loses the ability to direct, the child then becomes uncontrollable.

It's not easy and it isn't robotic and by the book. People make mistakes every day and no one is perfect, but if you ground your discipline in love and respect, you will raise very loving and respectful children.

[CMH]

Re: Physical Discipline........

In your opinion, how is a 17 month old able to better understand time-out, a completely abstract concept, rather than spanking, a completely concrete one?

I know you're not asking me, but timeouts, while not as concrete as a spanking, are not only abstract. We all know what 17 month old children like to do. I saw three of them this past weekend. You limit that child's opportunity to roam the earth and the kid is feeling the pain of it.

It may sound ridiculous, but I will always compare a young child's behavior to that of a puppy. My sister's dog does not like being kept in her discipline cage when she makes a mess on the floor. Her ability to comprehend is much less than that of a human child, yet she knows that she's been punished and she hates it. 17-month old kid will hate it too.

[MassNole]

Re: Physical Discipline........

In your opinion, how is a 17 month old able to better understand time-out, a completely abstract concept, rather than spanking, a completely concrete one?

Because we sit there with him and explain why we're sitting there and not able to play. So we're engaged in communication with him as well. How much of it he understands I don't really know. However if I was to strike him in anyway he would become afraid of me for having done it and would be afraid to break the rules for fear of physical reciprocity and thus learn nothing but Mommy and Daddy are bigger than me.

Also if spanking was used for minor offenses there would be no way within the laws of Massachusetts to proportionately punish for more severe offenses down the road. We have it reserved for two things which are running for/into the road and reaching up to a hot stove. In these instances I feel the pain of spanking is much less severe than the injury he could face for engaging in those behaviors.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Physical Discipline........

Because we sit there with him and explain why we're sitting there and not able to play. So we're engaged in communication with him as well. How much of it he understands I don't really know. However if I was to strike him in anyway he would become afraid of me for having done it and would be afraid to break the rules for fear of physical reciprocity and thus learn nothing but Mommy and Daddy are bigger than me.

That's a good explanation of how to go about the use of a timeout. I would say though that there isn't anything wrong with your child having a healthy fear of you. There also needs to be clarity in how a child gets spanked. Using the word hitting or striking gives the impression the child is abruptly getting smacked around. A simple, "I said NO," and then a swat on the hand is my idea of spanking a 17 month old. In my experience that helps establish a healthy respect of parent.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Physical Discipline........

My parents are from the south so therefore they didn't believe in time out or you going to lose tv watching or videogame playing. If you got out of line you got dealt with right then and there. Didn't matter if you were in the store or at church.

Act out in public and you would have got dealt with 5 times as bad. My parents believed in you got spanked with whatever that was around them in reaching distance at the time.

So therefore I got whooped with a belt, extension cord, house shoe, flip flops, switch, 3 inch thick cow hide belt or just the their hand. And for me growing up I would rather get whooped by my mom then my dad because she didn't hit as nearly as hard. It would take about 20 licks from her to get you to cry. But with my dad, he hit so hard, the 1st whack and you were crying.

And yes my parents didn't believe in 3 or 4 swats, they believed in 30 seconds of hell. My dad would come home and my mom would be like he talked back to me, my dad would snatch me up by the shirt with one hand, my feet dangling in the air, you did what boy ?????? Get across that bed and wore that arse out with the 3 inch thick cow hide belt.

That belt was known as the I am going break your arse strap for showing out. Left your butt sore for days. My parents told us from day one we didn't have an opinion, we didn't have a say, this wasn't a democracy in this house, this was a kingdom and there is only one king.

Let you try to talk back or point, you would have got the back hand across your mouth right then and there. And let some fool on the street try to tell my parents how to raise their kids, my dad would have said you got a problem here, step up for I can whoop your arse too.

Needless to say I grew up a good kid LOL. I look at these kids today.....lack of discipline. They talk back to their moms left and right. Walk away from their moms when their mom is talking to them, pointing at them, gettting all up in their face.

My parents didn't take none of that. They have always said you walk up on me you better be prepared to throw down because I going to knock you on your arse for getting up on me like that.

They weren't BS either. My sister walked up on our mom when she was 15, our mom hit her right in the face and dropped her. Then stood over her and was like you lost your damn mind, who you walking up on like that ?

My younger brother tried that on our mom when he was 12, because he was already pushing 6ft then. Mom side kicked right in under the chin kind of like how Shawn Michaels does his sweet chin music. My younger brother hit the floor. Mom was like don't think because you taller then me I won't kick your arse.

Nobody tried walking up on our dad LMAO.

[Cusefan]

Re: Physical Discipline........

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Was just thinking of you guys on OS? Good new age sit down with the little tike.

You know she was holding back because of the Camera, you could see it in her eyes. My Gut tells me she gives him a good ole fashioned whooping when the camera goes.

[slimm44]

Re: Physical Discipline........

How many people in here think that the parents in a family are unequivocally the authority in a family? I do. I think it's important to listen to and hear your kids, but when it comes to making decisions, it's gonna be done by mom and dad, for better or worse. IMO, kids have no place making decisions, whether by word or by behavior, in a family. When they do, chaos (in some form or fashion), ensues. Parents should be the authority but should also do it in love and in a way that sets a healthy example for the kids to follow.

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Physical Discipline........

IMO that is the biggest problem with parents now. Too many of them treat their kids as friends instead of treating as kids. I see it everytime I go to the store. People be holding family meetings with their kids asking them if they want to wash dishes tonight.

I just SMH and say wow. My parents didn't ask if we wanted to do chores. You had no choice, no say in the matter at all. They were like you going to wash dishes, you going to mop the floor and you going to take the trash out out of all the garbage cans in the house.

LOL yeah my parents would have a fit if the kitchen trash can was taken out but not the bathroom and bed room trash cans. My dad was like when I tell you to take the trash out, I mean ALL the trash cans, not just the one in the kitchen.

[mKoz26]

Re: Physical Discipline........

Gotmadskillz, would you say you grew up a 'happy' child?

I understand the whippings teach discipline (albeit by fear), but did you have a good relationship with your parents as a child?

It just seems like beating your child is the easy route in discipline when there are other options that are both effective and non-violent.

[DaveDQ]

Re: Physical Discipline........

My parents are from the south so therefore they didn't believe in time out or you going to lose tv watching or videogame playing. If you got out of line you got dealt with right then and there. Didn't matter if you were in the store or at church.

Act out in public and you would have got dealt with 5 times as bad. My parents believed in you got spanked with whatever that was around them in reaching distance at the time.

So therefore I got whooped with a belt, extension cord, house shoe, flip flops, switch, 3 inch thick cow hide belt or just the their hand. And for me growing up I would rather get whooped by my mom then my dad because she didn't hit as nearly as hard. It would take about 20 licks from her to get you to cry. But with my dad, he hit so hard, the 1st whack and you were crying.

And yes my parents didn't believe in 3 or 4 swats, they believed in 30 seconds of hell. My dad would come home and my mom would be like he talked back to me, my dad would snatch me up by the shirt with one hand, my feet dangling in the air, you did what boy ?????? Get across that bed and wore that arse out with the 3 inch thick cow hide belt.

That belt was known as the I am going break your arse strap for showing out. Left your butt sore for days. My parents told us from day one we didn't have an opinion, we didn't have a say, this wasn't a democracy in this house, this was a kingdom and there is only one king.

Let you try to talk back or point, you would have got the back hand across your mouth right then and there. And let some fool on the street try to tell my parents how to raise their kids, my dad would have said you got a problem here, step up for I can whoop your arse too.

Needless to say I grew up a good kid LOL. I look at these kids today.....lack of discipline. They talk back to their moms left and right. Walk away from their moms when their mom is talking to them, pointing at them, gettting all up in their face.

My parents didn't take none of that. They have always said you walk up on me you better be prepared to throw down because I going to knock you on your arse for getting up on me like that.

They weren't BS either. My sister walked up on our mom when she was 15, our mom hit her right in the face and dropped her. Then stood over her and was like you lost your damn mind, who you walking up on like that ?

My younger brother tried that on our mom when he was 12, because he was already pushing 6ft then. Mom side kicked right in under the chin kind of like how Shawn Michaels does his sweet chin music. My younger brother hit the floor. Mom was like don't think because you taller then me I won't kick your arse.

Nobody tried walking up on our dad LMAO.

LOL..there used to be a show called "Wait 'Till Your Father Gets Home." I don't know what my father did or how, but I can hardly remember him spanking me. I just had this overall fear that he worked hard and I needed to respect him. There was one time I tried to scare everyone in the house because the lights went out during a hurricane. I ran into the house and yelled something like, "Booogalooooo..." and my father grabbed me by the back of my neck, led me down the hall way and shoved me in my room. He just said something like, "You don't do that.."

I bet I actually scared him..lol

[Gotmadskillzson]

Re: Physical Discipline........

Yep grew up a very happy child, I got everything I wanted 90% of the time. The other 10% I got what I needed and what was more functional then name brand. To this day I can call my parents up anytime I want. If I need money they will lend me some money. My parents taught me the value of money and a good work ethic, that nothing in life is free. And there is a cause and effect for everything in this world.