Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

show me legally how that's excessive force? There are 5 steps to justifiable force for a police officer.
Verbal, Physical, Non Lethal, Impact, and then lastly deadly physical force.

the taser is non lethal. An officer is allowed to escalate is use of force if there is non compliance. Non compliance means if the guy is verbally told to stop moving and he continues to move, then physical contact is justified. Physical force was then used on the suspect. If he then makes one movement when instructed not to by both verbal and physical force, the officer is allowed to then escalate to the use of the taser. It's at that point where he should have stopped..

if he truly intended to use his taser but instead use his service weapon, it's criminally negligent. Either way it's a felony, just different jail time. Judging by the fact that he stood up, backed away and then fired, it seems more along the lines of the steps to using a taser.

Who knows, more information needs to come out, but just to look at a video and make a full conclusion as to the severity of his punishment is just being naive about this. Heck, if that's the way things are operated in some of the guys minds here, then why even bother with a trial? The trial is to determine the justifiable punishment.


I don't think i've seen anyone say that what happened was justifiable, but to jut say it's murder based on a video and not even listening to any other factors just is not the way the legal system works.

A taser is non leathal. Yeah right. Then explain to me why some people die when they are tased. And also I think if you had 2 guys on your back you'd squirm too. It's just a reaction. If he was trying to get out he probably would've moved more violently

[GSW]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

A taser is non leathal. Yeah right. Then explain to me why some people die when they are tased. And also I think if you had 2 guys on your back you'd squirm too. It's just a reaction. If he was trying to get out he probably would've moved more violently

^

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

Here are some stats to show why tasers aren't non lethal from wikipedia "Amnesty International has documented over 245 deaths that occurred after the use of tasers between 2001 and 2007"

[Keirik]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

A taser is non leathal. Yeah right. Then explain to me why some people die when they are tased. And also I think if you had 2 guys on your back you'd squirm too. It's just a reaction. If he was trying to get out he probably would've moved more violently

what exactly is your point ? Anything can become lethal, but legally a taser is considered a non lethal weapon in legal terms. There are tons of cases when a punch leads to a death. Does that also make it a lethal move?


You don't have to like it, but in terms of use of force, the taser is not considered a lethal weapon. I don't think you understand what exactly you are talking about, or there is some confusion. LEGALLY, it's not considered a lethal weapon. We can sit and talk about how many hundreds of deaths have occurred in tens/hundreds of thousands of occurrences of a taser being used.

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

what exactly is your point ? Anything can become lethal, but legally a taser is considered a non lethal weapon in legal terms. There are tons of cases when a punch leads to a death. Does that also make it a lethal move?


You don't have to like it, but in terms of use of force, the taser is not considered a lethal weapon. I don't think you understand what exactly you are talking about, or there is some confusion. LEGALLY, it's not considered a lethal weapon. We can sit and talk about how many hundreds of deaths have occurred in tens/hundreds of thousands of occurrences of a taser being used.

My point is that pulling ANY weapon in that situation is not justifiable at all.

[Keirik]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

My point is that pulling ANY weapon in that situation is not justifiable at all.

and im trying to explain to you that you are wrong about that in the legal sense. If he had pulled his taser and used that, this isn't even a story because he's justified to use it.

We all know that the cop should not have used his taser there, but that doesn't change that if he used it instead of his gun, there is no problem at all.


There is a reason why some departments dont use the taser, including mine. We use mace instead but in terms of steps of force, the mace and taser are on the same level, and not considered lethal use of force.


You don't have to believe me, but it still doesn't change the truth.

[jmood88]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

well, actually, you're 100% wrong. Those questions DO need to be answered because that's how our legal system works. This isn't the Salem Witch trials where we just go by one piece of evidence and ignore every other factor. It's 2009.

And actually, the guy was not restrained. Cuffs or not. Believe me, there are millions of times where a suspect appears to be restrained and fights off 10 officers trying to hold him down. I've seen it and i've been involved in it. Police officers aren't trained to slowly make decisions. Heck, i've even seen a mental aided woman break open cuffs before.

Either way, the questions still need to be answered. He's obviously going to be convicted of something, but those questions need to be answered to find out the severity of his punishment. If you think they dont need to be answered just because a guy is dead, then you're being naive. That's not how the legal system works.

lol were you trying to arrest the Hulk when you saw the guy fight off 10 officers?

[jmood88]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

that is so ignorant it's not even funny. Ask any police officer if a restrained person can still get out even if 10 officers are holding the suspect down. I've literally seen it with my own eyes.

No one here is saying that the guy should get off, resume his job, and go back to life. He obviously is screwed either way, but if he was trying to use his taser and accidentally used his gun, then we're talking criminal negligent homicide, not murder. An officer IS legally justified to use a taser even on a fully restrained person.

Since when do guns and Tasers feel the same?

[Keirik]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

lol were you trying to arrest the Hulk when you saw the guy fight off 10 officers?

nope, it was a guy that was maybe 160 lbs soaking wet....

another time saw a 58 year old woman break free from cuffs...

adrenaline is a very very powerful thing. It's freaky what you'd see in some situations.

as for the taser, in the heat of the moment, it could easily be mistaken, epscially if we're talking a newer officer with not much experience. Actually, something that comes into play for this is the fact that the BART police were JUST authorized to carry a taser ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO.


taser



not sure if the BART use for their service weapon, but i'd guess it's probably a glock

[RAZRr1275]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

^ As I said before in this thread that's even more reason that the guy should've looked to see what weapon he had

[GSW]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

i still dont get why he'd taze him.

i just hope i never get tackled by BART cops... i ride the train to and from work... hopefully i never get put ina situation where someone feels the need to taze me when im laying on the ground.

[jmood88]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

nope, it was a guy that was maybe 160 lbs soaking wet....

another time saw a 58 year old woman break free from cuffs...

adrenaline is a very very powerful thing. It's freaky what you'd see in some situations.

as for the taser, in the heat of the moment, it could easily be mistaken, epscially if we're talking a newer officer with not much experience. Actually, something that comes into play for this is the fact that the BART police were JUST authorized to carry a taser ONLY A FEW WEEKS AGO.


taser



not sure if the BART use for their service weapon, but i'd guess it's probably a glock

From what I can find a Taser weighs 7 oz, a glock without bullets weighs at least 22 oz. That's a big difference.

[Keirik]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

^ As I said before in this thread that's even more reason that the guy should've looked to see what weapon he had

well, who knows....there's something called tunnel vision and it happens to almost every single officer sometimes. If it's true he meant to grab his taser instead, then it does make sense. He very easily and unfortunately could have gotten tunnel vision which creates this unfortunately event.


I know i've experienced tunnel vision at work and it's freaky how focused you are on one thing that you completely dont realize anything else. It's actually one of the easiest patterns to get into and most dangerous at the same time.


Of course he should have checked which weapon. That goes without saying, but it's really easy to armchair quarterback it afterwards. Unfortunately though, he either made a bad judgment in his use of force by shooting his service weapon or is going to basically be hung out to dry over mistaking a taser for a gun.

[the_future420]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

I just hope that there isn't someway that this cop beats the murder trial and goes free.

[fishepa]

Re: Man shot in the back by cops, while on the ground

I just hope that there isn't someway that this cop beats the murder trial and goes free.

Don't worry, I'm sure some crazy will murder him if he does get off.