The disturbing trend at OS

[Speedy]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I can't speak for Madden, as I've never worked on it. But I have worked on games where fixing annoying issue A leads to brand-new issues B, C, and D, and it becomes more trouble than it's worth. Especially when higher-ups never like to hear about "fixing", always "innovating" (ie, shiny new features).

I certainly understand your perspective but you would agree that eventually that would turn away the true gamers if those issues weren't fixed? As much as I love the shiny stuff, it's the core which gets me going.

As an analogy, think of a car: nice rims, stereo system, spoiler, muffler, paint scheme, etc. sounds awesome and certainly looks appeasing -- however there's not much to having the car if the engine is continually faulty. I certainly won't enjoy the car nearly as much as I would if the "core" was problem free.

Again, that's coming from a consumer's opinion and the frustration I have but like you stated, there might be decisions to which the devs are forced to make.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I agree, but do you really want Madden's current engine ported to the next batch of systems?

I think the current engine can work over time. I certainly don't trust another re-write and then deal with a bare bones version that may or may not work right.

There were two things that I thought the 2K football games did extremely well and did far better than Madden (everything else was debatable). And that was presentation and the line play. The Madden team is getting close with presentation and it will get there. But the line play still needs a ton of work. In 2K4, blockers hit guys on the move and the momentum took them that way. Suction blocking was minimal. Most importantly, as a DE you could rush upfield and you didn't have to stop and engage the OT to get to the QB. The OT might get a piece of you but you never had to fully stop and engage in a Tecmo style of battle. The outside rush was a thing of beauty and Madden still isn't close to that. You have to fully engage the OL and then make your move as suction blocking is alive and well. It's really ridiculous that they don't have the outside speed rush done well at all. Especially since a PS2/XBox game did it almost perfectly six years ago.

I do think the EA team is getting closer and closer. It used to be the third game on a new system was darn near perfect. It's just taking too long on these systems to get it right.

[Qb]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think we all need to remember that we are in the minority when it comes to gamers.

[roadman]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think we all need to remember that we are in the minority when it comes to gamers.

Very true.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think we all need to remember that we are in the minority when it comes to gamers.

Yup. And just like Dr. Jones said, the higher ups actually take us for granted figuring that the hardcore guys will buy the games either way. That's mostly true although I've seen a lot of guys bail on sports games this year including myself to a degree.

The improvement in sales is all about getting Joe Average on the street to buy the game. And that means they need a shiny new feature to advertise.

[Jistic]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think we all need to remember that we are in the minority when it comes to gamers.

I think that doesn't mean what you think it does though. NOBODY that I work with bought Madden this year except me. This is the first year none of them have. They all think Madden is a roster update and the same game over and over every year.

I bought it. But I'm considered a "hard core" sports gamer here. Madden appealing to the "masses" may not be a good long term strategy. I think their sales were disappointing this year weren't they?

[JBH3]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think we all need to remember that we are in the minority when it comes to gamers.

1st: Nice Avy.
2nd: Very sad...but true.

[Qb]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I think that doesn't mean what you think it does though. NOBODY that I work with bought Madden this year except me. This is the first year none of them have. They all think Madden is a roster update and the same game over and over every year.

I bought it. But I'm considered a "hard core" sports gamer here. Madden appealing to the "masses" may not be a good long term strategy. I think their sales were disappointing this year weren't they?

I think it has several permutations, one of which is what you described with this year's Madden. I think Madden is an unusual case, as the more "casual" gamers may have finally been turned off after years of complaints from the "hardcore" finally became the overwhelming perception of the game (accurate or not this year).

Anyways, I think my general premise holds true in all of them -- most of the people who buy sports games don't spend hours on end on the internet devouring, scrutinizing, and analyzing every aspect of said games.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

A lot of it has to do with expectations. I was really disappointed in Spiderman 3 after going to the theatres because I expected a good movie and not an average one. But I could sit back and like Wolverine and the Transformers because I wasn't expecting much.

A lot of us look back at old games we had a ton of fun with as just posted on OS roundtable . We loved Tecmo Superbowl, NHL 94, NBA Live 95, etc back then because they more than met our expectations of video games at the time. Some of these new games haven't met our expectations for these new consoles. People may have been happier playing NBA Live 95 back then compared to playing NBA Live 10 now but nobody would choose Live 95 right now as their basketball game of choice.

Part of the problem with these expectations is that these new consoles aren't as powerful as we think they are. I also think the ability to improve these games is really shrinking. Look at how basic and ugly some of our favourite games of all time were. Tons of areas could be improved but not so much anymore. That's not giving the developers a free pass but it's part of the problem.

Even though EA eliminated the 2K football game with the licensed deal, Madden truly does have to compete with every game on the market for your dollars. Does a kid buy the next iteration of Madden which may be pretty similar to last year's or do they spend their money on something else? I think all sports games no longer compete in a vaccuum within their sports. They have to fight and claw for people's entertainment dollar.

[DrJones]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

I certainly understand your perspective but you would agree that eventually that would turn away the true gamers if those issues weren't fixed? As much as I love the shiny stuff, it's the core which gets me going.

As an analogy, think of a car: nice rims, stereo system, spoiler, muffler, paint scheme, etc. sounds awesome and certainly looks appeasing -- however there's not much to having the car if the engine is continually faulty. I certainly won't enjoy the car nearly as much as I would if the "core" was problem free.

Again, that's coming from a consumer's opinion and the frustration I have but like you stated, there might be decisions to which the devs are forced to make.

Hey, you don't have to convince me. Imagine your frustration if you were only allowed to work on fixing the engine during non-core hours because your bosses thought it was unimportant. Then imagine your core hours were 70-80 hours per week.

[Qb]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Jeez, I wonder why the devs get so frustrated when jackasses call them lazy?

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Jeez, I wonder why the devs get so frustrated when jackasses call them lazy?

They really shouldn't though. When you are on a message board, there are a ton of jerks and tough guys hiding behind monitors. It's a simple reality of the modern world. Just accept the fact that these guys are losers and don't take things so personally. That's easier said than done but it gets easier as we get older. A lot of these developers seem to be very young and I think it's harder for them to filter out the stupid comments from the real ones. The older you get the less you care about what other people think.

[aholbert32]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

They really shouldn't though. When you are on a message board, there are a ton of jerks and tough guys hiding behind monitors. It's a simple reality of the modern world. Just accept the fact that these guys are losers and don't take things so personally. That's easier said than done but it gets easier as we get older. A lot of these developers seem to be very young and I think it's harder for them to filter out the stupid comments from the real ones. The older you get the less you care about what other people think.

Devs attract way more attention than a normal poster. They become the focus of a lot of posters. Just look at the tons of threads and posts directed at them. Now there are some devs that are more sensitive then others but I can understand if they get upset when they have 100 posts talking about them and 25 are people throwing insults. I also dont think it has **** to do with age. I'm 32 and I wouldnt appreciate hundreds of people calling me lazy.

[Phobia]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

They really shouldn't though. When you are on a message board, there are a ton of jerks and tough guys hiding behind monitors. It's a simple reality of the modern world. Just accept the fact that these guys are losers and don't take things so personally. That's easier said than done but it gets easier as we get older. A lot of these developers seem to be very young and I think it's harder for them to filter out the stupid comments from the real ones. The older you get the less you care about what other people think.

I agree with ya Rudy. The world is not a perfect place. It is filled with idiots, murderers, thiefs, etc etc

The internet is the same thing. We don't "want" to interact with people that are not productive but the sad fact is we are forced to. So the best thing is to learn to take it for what it is. Something you can't change and can't fix. but it should have zero bearing on how you feel, the product you create, the way you go about your business or personal life.

Example being is I could careless if O.J. Simpson said I was a bad person and not a product to society. But I would be more inclined to listen is Bill gates was telling me "advice". You have to have a filter.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: The disturbing trend at OS

Devs attract way more attention than a normal poster. They become the focus of a lot of posters. Just look at the tons of threads and posts directed at them. Now there are some devs that are more sensitive then others but I can understand if they get upset when they have 100 posts talking about them and 25 are people throwing insults. I also dont think it has **** to do with age. I'm 32 and I wouldnt appreciate hundreds of people calling me lazy.

I understand that devs become a lightning rod for criticism. And I know there are e-stalkers that follow some guys around to complain constantly. I don't know how well I'd deal with some of that stuff but I do know that it has gotten easier for me over time in how I deal with criticism. In my job, my work gets criticized by co-workers and the public. Many of them are clueless. I used to get bothered a lot more when I was younger but at 37 I do a better job of tuning the dumb complaints out.