M22 Speed Threshold

[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by ranta21

Ah my favourite Madden topic! Realistic movement. Excellent work as always, Aestis. There are few things that I would like to point out. (Based on last gen knowledge) Almost! High threshold closes the gap between the fastest accelerators and everyone else. So everyone except 99 Acceleration gets raised closer to the 99 ACC player. Threshold does not affect the SPD attribute, only Acceleration. There is a big discrepancy with the name of the slider and what it actually does. Yeah high Speed Threshold actually makes SPD rating MORE IMPORTANT. If the threshold is high you get to use your SPD rating quicker. It makes ACC rating less useful. It’s a good goal but I actually think you should adjust the threshold based on 10 yard splits. Realistic acceleration could be possible with NEXT GEN, it wasn’t on last gen. The problem was that slow players max speed was too low, so with threshold we boosted their acceleration to fix it. Now we had two problems, bad max speeds and bad accelerations. I don’t think it was worth it. To me it was objectively going in the wrong direction. Less realistic movement. We could have bad max speeds, but better accelerations. Acceleration attribute lost meaning, gameplay was more twitchy, one-on-one battles got worse - especially in the trenches. OL and DL running faster 10 yard times than CJ2K. So I rest my case for objectively using 10 yard times instead of 40 yard times to adjust the Speed Threshold. I think “lower threshold is where speed matters, like the NFL” because that is objectively more realistic movement than high threshold (in last gen). Aestis, could you please run some 10 yard splits for us? Those numbers look really interesting. It would be awesome if NEXT GEN got rid of the acceleration/speed conflict of previous gen.

good stuff.

Deleted my other stuff cause I messed up in my test.

[capa]

So, based on last two posts..are we saying 50 is a balanced realistic setting, or 95 is a legit setting for realism? Or..are lower than 50 settings where it's at?

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[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by capa

So, based on last two posts..are we saying 50 is a balanced realistic setting, or 95 is a legit setting for realism? Or..are lower than 50 settings where it's at? Sent from my IN2019 using Operation Sports mobile app

I dont know. Lol. Inconclusive at the moment. I'm trying to figure that out as well.

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[charter04]

The way I did my test must not have been done right. Disregard my post. I'm back to the drawing board lol

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[jfsolo]

IMO lower that 50 creates a more college football like gameplaying experience, which is fine if you want that sort of thing, but it fundamentally different than how games are in the NFL.

50 is playable, but not optimal.

One of the things that the higher threshold does besides creating a more realistic differential is to compensate for the still lacking AI defender awareness of their own speed vs the offensive player they're trying to cover or tackle. Currently pursuit angle and cushion still isn't as conservative as it should be in terms of being adequately wary of the offensive players speed advantage.

[ranta21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

I know I had some conflicting thoughts on acceleration's role in SPD threshold 2-3 yrs back, so some testing is definitely warranted here. Given the premise that SPD Threshold only affects acceleration and not speed, and that 10-yard splits are the best way to gauge that, let me know if I'm thinking about this correctly: Player A: 90 spd, 99 acc Player B: 90 spd, 50 acc Same height/etc. On 95 threshold, their first 10 yards should be extremely close despite Player A having a far higher acceleration rating. On 5 threshold, Player A should smoke Player B in the first 10 yards. Agree?

Yes. Let's see the numbers! I am very interested in the revamped acceleration of the next gen.

[Aestis]

OK here goes. Skip to the bottom if you just care about the conclusion.

Time differences aren't necessary as an initial test on 10 yd splits: a few milliseconds matter more there and are less reliable. Instead, Test #1 was simply a True/False test to measure whether acceleration is impacted meaningfully by Speed Threshold, as observed by a 10 yd sprint.

Player A: 90 spd, 99 accel, all other relevant attributes same as below (including height)
Player B: 90 spd, 50 accel

TEST
- Franchise Practice Mode
- Line up both WRs side by side, aligned even with each other, both running hot-routed streaks
- Observe where the two players are relative to each other 10 yds downfield
- Will measure on 5 & 95 threshold levels. If threshold impacts acceleration instead of speed, we should see different results between these two thresholds despite spd of the players being the same.


RESULTS

5 Threshold
As you can see the 90 spd 99 accel player makes it 10 yds downfield and is already 5 yds ahead of the 90 spd 50 accel player, i.e. runs that 10 yd sprint 2X faster:




Now let's look at 95 threshold and see if acceleration rating is effectively ignored. As you can see the screenshot is effectively identical. This alone is pretty strong evidence that acceleration is not impacted whatsoever by Speed Threshold. The 99 accel player still makes it 10 yds downfield in the time the 50 accel player has only made it 5 yds. 2X faster, same as 5 threshold. In fact, if I'm being truly honest, I cannot recall which of these sshots was 5 and which was 95!

In short, I see no threat here that higher speed thresholds make the acceleration attribute irrelevant or minimize it in any perceivable way.





To be safe I also ran this test in Exhibition Practice Mode, just on the off chance something about Franchise Mode changed something. I got the same results. The two sshots were indistinguishable.


Longer Run:

I also ran a test (no sshots but can do as a follow up if people like) about what happens 40+ yds downfield on 95 threshold. I was curious if, say, OK perhaps 40 yds downfield 95 threshold measures well between a WR/OL, but what if it's way too tight among two faster players, in this case 90 spd vs 99 spd. That's a 9 speed difference, the approximate equivalent of a 4.25 time vs a 4.48 time at the combine. Large difference! I think most Madden guys would assume the 4.25 guy should be 5-8 yds ahead by the time they're 40-50 yds downfield, right?

Here is how the math breaks down.

The 4.48 guy is running 8.93 yds per second, on avg. So, 4.25 seconds into his run, he should be roughly 37.95 yds downfield. In other words, the gap between a 99 spd guy and a 90 spd guy is only 2 yards 40 yds downfield. In reality it's not quite that simple as release at the start of a 40 yd dash is slower than the final 5-10 yds, obviously, and in reality the 4.25 freak athlete probably also accelerates faster than the 4.48 guy. But you get the overall point: even a 9 pt spd difference in Madden translates to a couple of yds.

I compared a 99 spd 99 accel player with a 90 spd 99 accel player to see how this benchmarked against the above approximate math. At 95 threshold, this tested pretty well: 10 yds downfield, they were neck & neck as you would generally expect from two fast players with 99 acceleration. 40-50 yds downfield, the 99 player was about 2.5 yds ahead. Again that will 'feel' too tight to your average Madden player, but it's actually about right. IRL 2.5 yds is the difference between an easy catch and having to fight for the ball.


Conclusion: I can find no evidence that Speed Threshold impacts acceleration instead of Speed, in fact evidence points to Speed being impacted.

I still feel good about 95 threshold.


Look, experimentation is by design written in pencil, so if someone can show with observable evidence why 95 performs poorly at XYZ, then please do. I wasn't sure how the acceleration test would go myself. But after running these, I'm more confident in 95 threshold as the sweet spot for speed difference than I was even before. Let me know if anyone thinks I'm still missing something!

[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

OK here goes. Skip to the bottom if you just care about the conclusion. Time differences aren't necessary as an initial test on 10 yd splits: a few milliseconds matter more there and are less reliable. Instead, Test #1 was simply a True/False test to measure whether acceleration is impacted meaningfully by Speed Threshold, as observed by a 10 yd sprint. Player A: 90 spd, 99 accel, all other relevant attributes same as below (including height) Player B: 90 spd, 50 accel TEST - Franchise Practice Mode - Line up both WRs side by side, aligned even with each other, both running hot-routed streaks - Observe where the two players are relative to each other 10 yds downfield - Will measure on 5 & 95 threshold levels. If threshold impacts acceleration instead of speed, we should see different results between these two thresholds despite spd of the players being the same. RESULTS 5 Threshold As you can see the 90 spd 99 accel player makes it 10 yds downfield and is already 5 yds ahead of the 90 spd 50 accel player, i.e. runs that 10 yd sprint 2X faster: Now let's look at 95 threshold and see if acceleration rating is effectively ignored. As you can see the screenshot is effectively identical. This alone is pretty strong evidence that acceleration is not impacted whatsoever by Speed Threshold. The 99 accel player still makes it 10 yds downfield in the time the 50 accel player has only made it 5 yds. 2X faster, same as 5 threshold. In fact, if I'm being truly honest, I cannot recall which of these sshots was 5 and which was 95! In short, I see no threat here that higher speed thresholds make the acceleration attribute irrelevant or minimize it in any perceivable way. To be safe I also ran this test in Exhibition Practice Mode, just on the off chance something about Franchise Mode changed something. I got the same results. The two sshots were indistinguishable. Longer Run: I also ran a test (no sshots but can do as a follow up if people like) about what happens 40+ yds downfield on 95 threshold. I was curious if, say, OK perhaps 40 yds downfield 95 threshold measures well between a WR/OL, but what if it's way too tight among two faster players, in this case 90 spd vs 99 spd. That's a 9 speed difference, the approximate equivalent of a 4.25 time vs a 4.48 time at the combine. Large difference! I think most Madden guys would assume the 4.25 guy should be 5-8 yds ahead by the time they're 40-50 yds downfield, right? Here is how the math breaks down. The 4.48 guy is running 8.93 yds per second, on avg. So, 4.25 seconds into his run, he should be roughly 37.95 yds downfield. In other words, the gap between a 99 spd guy and a 90 spd guy is only 2 yards 40 yds downfield. In reality it's not quite that simple as release at the start of a 40 yd dash is slower than the final 5-10 yds, obviously, and in reality the 4.25 freak athlete probably also accelerates faster than the 4.48 guy. But you get the overall point: even a 9 pt spd difference in Madden translates to a couple of yds. I compared a 99 spd 99 accel player with a 90 spd 99 accel player to see how this benchmarked against the above approximate math. At 95 threshold, this tested pretty well: 10 yds downfield, they were neck & neck as you would generally expect from two fast players with 99 acceleration. 40-50 yds downfield, the 99 player was about 2.5 yds ahead. Again that will 'feel' too tight to your average Madden player, but it's actually about right. IRL 2.5 yds is the difference between an easy catch and having to fight for the ball. Conclusion: I can find no evidence that Speed Threshold impacts acceleration instead of Speed, in fact evidence points to Speed being impacted. I still feel good about 95 threshold. Look, experimentation is by design written in pencil, so if someone can show with observable evidence why 95 performs poorly at XYZ, then please do. I wasn't sure how the acceleration test would go myself. But after running these, I'm more confident in 95 threshold as the sweet spot for speed difference than I was even before. Let me know if anyone thinks I'm still missing something!

Good stuff. I'm sold.

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