I don't understand...

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Things that bothered me to the point I cannot play it are as follows:

1) Bugs, bugs, bugs and more bugs. Made the game unplayable with how I wish to play it. Custom playbook, lol! Fifteen minutes with fatigue, haha! Two QB depth chart, you mean infinite QB depth chart. The lack of QA in most modern games is really starting to get to me. I'd take less for more quality.

2) Poorly designed Career mode. The progression system is okay I suppose, if the AI actually was able to advance backups. You either have to start a player to improve him, or completely cheat the AI and practice. I'll take random progression that actually works well with the overall design of the game over a poorly implemented XP system which is still incomplete after two years of implementation.

3) The disappearance of the physics engine from Madden 13. I prefer ragdoll to canned animations. The triggers for animations still makes no sense. I should have known better when I saw NCAA 14 Infinity 2.0 but, hey I guess I'm a sucker. I'm sure its still better than 2012 but it is so much worse than 2013.

As for people expecting too much, I think we were hoping for a fresh start, that EA Tiburon would rebuild the core of the game, full well knowing the core of the game they have used since 2006 has been a lousy piece of trash that should have been scrapped in 2007. Instead we still have that 2006 core with some new upgrades, and a couple new coats of paint.

In all, I'd give the next gen game a 5.0 on release. I'd give Battlefield a 1.0 on release, only because the game actually loaded up properly the first time. If core functions of a game are objectively broken, the game should never get above a 5.0. Core aspects to Madden are objectively broken.

[FlyingFinn]

I don't understand how anyone could say Next-Gen Madden is a good game. Is it better then the 360 version game: yes. Is it worthy of next gen: not even close.

[FaceMask]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kaiser Wilhelm

3) The disappearance of the physics engine from Madden 13. I prefer ragdoll to canned animations. The triggers for animations still makes no sense. I should have known better when I saw NCAA 14 Infinity 2.0 but, hey I guess I'm a sucker. I'm sure its still better than 2012 but it is so much worse than 2013.

Madden 13 had "canned animations" (motion capture) and most of that remains unchanged in Madden 25, with the exception that the RTP was toned down significantly from M13, but RTP is still in Madden 25. BackBreaker also had motion capture animations, in fact all of them were motion capture animations except for the collisions which were 100% real-time physics driven, while many of Madden's collisions are not in 25 but were moreso in 13.

The real-time physics engines in those games (like most games using RTP) deal with collision: player to player contact; and player to surface contact. The only exception might be airborne to surface calculations like what would be applied to ball physics, but well-written code can do the proper job of simulating proper ball physics without the need for using an RTP engine, and that's been proven in many football games dating back generations.

Gaming companies have done a poor job (or no job at all) of explaining these things to gamers, and Natural Motion altogether misled gamers about it during their campaign for BackBreaker, which explains why many people still to this day believe RTP was/is meant to replace motion capture, even though it would be fundamentally impossible since an RTP cannot on its own produce the types of animations a sports game needs to have to be playable. RTP's are inherently secondary systems in animation-driven games, while motion capture is and will remain primary for the long foreseeable future.

[NicVirtue]

Quote: Originally Posted by FaceMask

Madden 13 had "canned animations" (motion capture) and most of that remains unchanged in Madden 25, with the exception that the RTP was toned down significantly from M13, but RTP is still in Madden 25. BackBreaker also had motion capture animations, in fact all of them were motion capture animations except for the collisions which were 100% real-time physics driven, while many of Madden's collisions are not in 25 but were moreso in 13. The real-time physics engines in those games (like most games using RTP) deal with collision: player to player contact; and player to surface contact. The only exception might be airborne to surface calculations like what would be applied to ball physics, but well-written code can do the proper job of simulating proper ball physics without the need for using an RTP engine, and that's been proven in many football games dating back generations. Gaming companies have done a poor job (or no job at all) of explaining these things to gamers, and Natural Motion altogether misled gamers about it during their campaign for BackBreaker, which explains why many people still to this day believe RTP was/is meant to replace motion capture, even though it would be fundamentally impossible since an RTP cannot on its own produce the types of animations a sports game needs to have to be playable. RTP's are inherently secondary systems in animation-driven games, while motion capture is and will remain primary for the long foreseeable future.

I don't think anyone thought that Backbreaker didn't have animations. The difference between BB and Madden, is that because the physics are just layered on top of the animation system in Madden, it is more than likely you will see the same things over and over, with the only differences being limb augmentation. Backbreaker was built on physics, on the contrary, so you will next to never see the same things over and over. Of coarse there will be base animations, like running, jumping, throwing, etc. But those animations are completely under the mercy of the physics engine, instead of the physics being under the mercy of the animation, like it is in Madden.

[FaceMask]

Quote: Originally Posted by NicVirtue

I don't think anyone thought that Backbreaker didn't have animations.

Except, that the very thought has been posted by people across the net countless times since BackBreaker's campaign took shape.

Quote: Originally Posted by NicVirtue

IThe difference between BB and Madden, is that because the physics are just layered on top of the animation system in Madden,

They have to work together. Both games handled this the same way because they have to be. Having worked with several RTPe's, I'll say, if there is another way to implement RTP into a game where animations are driven primarily by motion capture, I'd like to see it and then be explained to how it was done.

Infinity is far less mature than Euphoria, and then I doubt Madden's legacy code helped the matter since its core animation system was/is already terribly flawed to begin with. They're basically trying to put a new coat of paint on a old rundown Ford Pinto, meaning it still looks bad and runs bad from an animation standpoint.

Quote: Originally Posted by NicVirtue

Iit is more than likely you will see the same things over and over, with the only differences being limb augmentation. Backbreaker was built on physics, on the contrary, so you will next to never see the same things over and over.

The one point we can agree on is that Madden's Infinity engine does a poor job of dealing with outcomes for limbs. It's very stiff and makes tackle collisions lose that realism that BackBreaker was able to produce in terms of how limbs react, at least generally since even Euphoria can't do it 100% of the time. But when you look at Madden's player models, you get the impression that the bone composition itself needs some upgrading. Limbs often seem to be locked at a certain angle. How bones are composed can really have an affect on it all.

Quote: Originally Posted by NicVirtue

IOf coarse there will be base animations, like running, jumping, throwing, etc.

But that's not what a lot of people post. A lot of people post online under the misconception that a real-time physics engine produces this on its own, and there are lots of posts over the years online illustrating that. Many people have gotten the impression that RTP means the end of "canned animations", but I again blame Natural Motion for that because before NM's campaign these things weren't said much by football gamers, if at all.

Quote: Originally Posted by NicVirtue

IBut those animations are completely under the mercy of the physics engine, instead of the physics being under the mercy of the animation, like it is in Madden.

All RTPe's in mocap based games have to wait for a cue to interrupt the mocap cycle, so Madden and BackBreaker are no different in that regard. Based on what we see from Infinity however, it just appears that they've restricted the number of ways it can trigger moreso than what Natural Motion did with BB. In BB, it appears every tackle collision triggers RTP, whereas in Madden it's a toss-up and you will see the same tackle collision numerous times in the course of a single game. But there are pros and cons to both approaches. If Madden's core animations weren't already a disaster then none of this would be looked at as a big problem. They should've addressed the core animation problem long before venturing into real-time physics.

[raiders81tim]

After seeing killzone, nba 2k14, bf4 and the like I dont see how anyone could consider Madden 25 next gen at all.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by FaceMask

They should've addressed the core animation problem long before venturing into real-time physics.

Face, I would love to frame this part of your post. I could not agree with you more here and I was saying it from the get go. When the whole hype for RTP was brought up, I was actually one of the few who were against it. While I think an RTP is great for sports games (if it's mature enough), it doesn't do much bevause everything else is so broken. What the Tiburon team fails to understand is that you can't possibly learn to run without learning to walk. So instead of getting a realistic football game with organic gameplay, now we get crappy animations with folding paper bodies and limbs. It looks absolutely ridiculous to see players folding and bending into ridiculous positions. 2k8 does not have an RTP, yet all of the player movement and interactions are incredibly realistic. It's not needed. It would be great to have on top of an already stellar animation engine, but as we all know, Madden's animation engine is horrendous.

[phillyfan23]

I've completed 2 seasons with madden 25 ps4....went 9-7 with philly and lost in the 2nd round of playoffs.

then went 10-6 with bengals...and missed playoffs.

about to start a third with the cowboys...

from madden 05 to madden 13....never finished ONE whole season.

gameplay and.physics are quite.good...and the game is balanced. throwing with rodgers feels a whole lot different than throwing with michael vick, with good sliders of course. game gets it right



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