Vision Cone Alternative (How to make QB AWR matter)

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by SageInfinite

As far as QB's actually throwing from the pocket, I do really like the double tap idea. I think it'd be nice to have the primary receiver already "loaded" so to speak so the double tap is not required. Maybe for QB's with a higher awareness, 2 receivers could be pre loaded, so the dump off pass or second look wouldn't require a double tap....

I think this begin to address my concern with respect to ripping away control.

Assuming all the plays have a baked in pass progression - the first / second / third read - maybe high-AWR QBs automatically "see" more of their progressions. To use Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert again, maybe Brady basically passes like you do in Madden now, because his 99 AWR lets him see and know all his progressions simultaneously. Meanwhile, Gabbert with high-60s low-70s AWR has some sort of obstacle preventing him from getting to more of his reads quickly.

I still don't know if a second button press is the best way to implement that, because again the control concern for me, that hasn't gone away. Maybe instead of that, the game could either entirely hide the icons or shuffle the icons (ex. the Square receiver gets assigned R1 instead and you use R1 to throw him the ball, which subverts the user's muscle memory) for the receivers who the low-AWR QB can't get to? In this way, the user could overcome a playing with bad QB with stick skills (which is a compromise Madden is always going to have to some extent), but they'd have to work harder to do so.

[charter04]

Great post. I doubt EA will ever go away from their current passing set up but, I do wish they would consider some other options.

As others have said I liked the vision cone as an idea. I didn't like the implementation of it though.

I'm fine with EA keeping their current set up but, I would like an option to have something different if one wanted. Other football games, including madden, have done this. Vision cone could be used or not.

I would like your idea but, one idea that I have always liked would be to use a vision type system but, use the top four buttons to pass.

With the vision cone I always hated having to move my thumb back and forth from the icon buttons to the right stick. If you use the top 4 buttons (RB, RT, LB, LT) you could look with the right stick and still have your fingers already on the receiver buttons.

Awareness could factor in with only certain icons available or a delay in their availability.

Just an idea to throw out there.

[NDAlum]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I'd start with pre-play adjustments. I wouldn't restrict the user's ability to perform them - if you call a hot route, it would always succeed immediately - but I'd restrict how quickly a user can call successive adjustments or audibles. For example, Tom Brady would basically be able to call hot routes almost freely, with a quick animation by the QB signaling each hot route, as is the current Madden 16 user experience when audibling with any quarterback. Blaine Gabbert, however, would consistently play a longer animation to complete an audible or hot route. Again, the audible would still succeed immediately - the WR would never not hear the audible like in NCAA - but this would limit the number of adjustments lower-AWR QBs can make pre-play and also increase the risk of user-triggered delay of game penalties. It'd place value in acquiring a veteran signal caller in franchise to hold down the fort while the low-AWR rookie gains XP on the sideline until his AWR is progressed high enough, as opposed to playing the rookie immediately and suffering through his lack of ability to make adjustments at the line of scrimmage. Risk-reward. I'd also prototype some intangible buffs for high-AWR QBs. For example, maybe high-AWR QBs automatically recognize a clean pocket in front of them and will automatically step up into it, increasing the chances of an accurate pass. High AWR QBs could also have better chances of triggering beneficial contextual actions without user input; for example, maybe Russell Wilson automatically extends his arm to put the ball in front of the first down marker when he is scrambling towards the line to gain while going out of bounds, so you get 1st and 10 instead of 3rd and 1. Things like this make AWR meaningful without getting in the way of the user's ability to perform the actions he wishes to perform in the game. With the exception of the auto-step-up idea, which I admit I'd want to be careful with as that could impact control, the user will never feel like control of the game is being ripped away from him while also being able to see the difference between high-AWR and low-AWR players.

I personally don't think the suggestions you laid out would place the value on veteran QB's. I think if the AWR was represented within the game play you would see a huge impact. The pre play stuff I just don't see it because people break the huddle with plenty of time to make adjustments.

I don't feel like the idea I had would restrict user control. It wouldn't stop anybody from throwing the ball when and where (well general direction) they wanted to.

Also, that's a great idea for having 2 WR's pre-loaded for QB's with high AWR. You could even have it to 1/2 or 1/3 the field.

My idea is not fully baked

[NDAlum]

Quote: Originally Posted by charter04

Great post. I doubt EA will ever go away from their current passing set up but, I do wish they would consider some other options. As others have said I liked the vision cone as an idea. I didn't like the implementation of it though. I'm fine with EA keeping their current set up but, I would like an option to have something different if one wanted. Other football games, including madden, have done this. Vision cone could be used or not. I would like your idea but, one idea that I have always liked would be to use a vision type system but, use the top four buttons to pass. With the vision cone I always hated having to move my thumb back and forth from the icon buttons to the right stick. If you use the top 4 buttons (RB, RT, LB, LT) you could look with the right stick and still have your fingers already on the receiver buttons. Awareness could factor in with only certain icons available or a delay in their availability. Just an idea to throw out there.

Your concern was also my biggest concern with the vision cone. I didn't like having to move from RS to the buttons. With my DS4 right next to me it would even feel pretty weird trying the configuration you laid out.

[bspring3]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I think this begin to address my concern with respect to ripping away control.

I really want a system that TAKES control away from me as a user. I believe the user has too much control as the QB in relation to other positions that you play over the course of the game.

[NDAlum]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I think this begin to address my concern with respect to ripping away control. Assuming all the plays have a baked in pass progression - the first / second / third read - maybe high-AWR QBs automatically "see" more of their progressions. To use Tom Brady and Blaine Gabbert again, maybe Brady basically passes like you do in Madden now, because his 99 AWR lets him see and know all his progressions simultaneously. Meanwhile, Gabbert with high-60s low-70s AWR has some sort of obstacle preventing him from getting to more of his reads quickly. I still don't know if a second button press is the best way to implement that, because again the control concern for me, that hasn't gone away. Maybe instead of that, the game could either entirely hide the icons or shuffle the icons (ex. the Square receiver gets assigned R1 instead and you use R1 to throw him the ball, which subverts the user's muscle memory) for the receivers who the low-AWR QB can't get to? In this way, the user could overcome a playing with bad QB with stick skills (which is a compromise Madden is always going to have to some extent), but they'd have to work harder to do so.

We just have a core difference of opinion on how we want to enjoy the game. The method I laid out wouldn't take away control, it would just diminish effectiveness of low AWR QB's to an extent. It can still be defeated by a user who is able to read the field pre-snap well enough.

[The JareBear]

Quote: Originally Posted by bspring3

I love this idea. Anytime I can take a 75 overall QB with low awareness and have a MVP caliber season in a very competitive online league, something is clearly wrong. A good user can take almost every QB and perform better than they should due to the god-like vision Madden grants you of the field. I hated the QB Vision cone due to its clunkiness but the idea was a great one. I think ND's idea achieves a similar result with a much more seamless method.

Yeah, Bryan. Last year I felt it was kind of weird I was so happy to get rid of Peyton and use Brock. There definitely needs to be something to make QB ratings matter beyond just arm strength and accuracy

The cone was def a little clunky but I feel the idea, in principle, could have stayed in the game and been approved on. I think NDs idea is awesome.

Any change like this would initially be met with opposition by the tourney crowd but I think after a little while it would be accepted and become natural.

[SageInfinite]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

I still don't know if a second button press is the best way to implement that, because again the control concern for me, that hasn't gone away. Maybe instead of that, the game could either entirely hide the icons or shuffle the icons (ex. the Square receiver gets assigned R1 instead and you use R1 to throw him the ball, which subverts the user's muscle memory) for the receivers who the low-AWR QB can't get to? In this way, the user could overcome a playing with bad QB with stick skills (which is a compromise Madden is always going to have to some extent), but they'd have to work harder to do so.

I think that is interesting to have the icons shuffled. I'd rather that tie into game conditions personally though. Playing a playoff game on the road or a situation similar to that.

Maybe instead of the double tap, for lower rated QB's the animations could correspond with their ratings. Just like for deeper throws the animations takes longer requiring more time. For each receiver depending on their position, a "head turning" animation has to play out first before the throw. Higher rated QB's can make the tough throws or reads quicker and easier, than the lower tiered QB's.

I think once Tiburon decides to revisit sig animations for QB's and expand on that, we might see a more natural remedy for this without sacrificing control, or perceived control. Different QB "packages" could be assigned for each quarterback to emulate their style. Similar to how the NBA games do with Sig dribble, shooting, and passing packages. We could have throw under pressure animations, throw on the run, across the body, ect....