Why the narrow-sighted "AI" is a problem on Madden and NCAA

[Sigma4Life]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

Yeah, I don't know that any other games have it, and I understand that it's probably pretty difficult to do, but it's pretty vital. I have an idea though, that might get us closer even if it doesn't actually do the whole thing. On offense, the CPU has priorities assigned to routes which allow the CPU QB to determine what to do if it's first option is covered, correct? What about hard-programming in options for every player on defense to know what to do, beyond their initial command? For instance, let's look at the plays that I showed in that video. The first is a basic Cover 3 zone defense out of Dime. So the flat zone defender, for instance, could have the assignment to go to the flat if there are any potential threats to that area. Once he drops to his area, he then runs some sort of radius/route check in which he surveys the field to look for what he should be guarding. Or in the second video, the player is guarding the hook area, which is threatened initially by the receiver running the drag, but is then vacated when the receiver continues past the hash marks. In that case, his first priority is to guard the hook, but then when he sees that there's nobody near his hook zone area, he abandons that assignment and looks for the nearest receiver to guard/defend. And rather than just having generic options for every assignment, maybe even go a step further and have the playbook guys program them in separately for each specific play in the game -- since they know what the scheme of the defense is. In essence, you're doing what a real coach would do. You're effectively telling the players, "____ is your first priority. Do _____ if they do A, but do ____ if they do B instead." I'm assuming the game has some capacity to do this as you'll see that zone players will match up to receivers in their zones -- the issue is that they just have a very small window in which they'll do so. So then you could program in alternate assignments that he should do if there is no threat to his first priority. So in the case of the flat defender there, he would go to the flat area, and then when nobody is out there and there are no threats, he then goes to his second option, and looks for a crossing/drag route and works his way back towards the hash/hook area. Then maybe you implement some sort of design where players can potentially "mess up" these checks if they have low zone coverage ratings, while players with high zone coverage ratings can make decisions on the fly really quickly. So now you have the ability for low rated players to get confused and to have truely random busted assignments that aren't cheap and don't happen universally/predictably. So maybe if I have a really low rated player gaurding the flats, he doesn't go to his second option until very late, or on the other side, maybe he gets too aggressive going to the second option and misses a HB coming out of the backfield. Just a thought.

I think you nailed it. The easy fix is to add secondary and tertiary options to the defenders. There is rarely a good reason to guard an open patch of grass. Plus simple things like if there is a receiver right in front of me and not another receiver within 25 yards I should effectively change my assignment from zone to man.

One thing I will say is EA did a great job of improving the pass defense late in the play. I find that now many late throws are picked instead of easy completions. The zone defenders seem to get a little more aggressive as the play progresses which is exactly how it should be. This is much appreciated.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

All good points. Out of sheer curiosity (I'm not trying to deflect here), are there any other sports games out there that you all feel have best-of-breed AI? Before I joined EA I was always kind of in awe that they were able to correctly model football so well (since it's by far the most complicated sport), but as we all know as the visual fidelity increases in games, so do the expectations of every other part of the game (i.e. animation, AI, lighting, etc) I'd like to see what everyone thinks so I am not missing anything and I can research them further.

I don't know if I'd consider it a "best-of-breed" A.I., but I do consider the AI to at least be very strategic in NBA 2K8. I feel strategy is one of the key areas that the AI is lacking in Madden.

For the first time, I felt challenged in a sports game to the point where I really had to apply some strategy (that specifically pertains to the sport) to do well against the CPU. Seriously, if I don't come out and hit shots in NBA 2K8, I'm just a sitting duck b/c I'm not too much into calling plays in basketball (more of a run & gun style). It's refreshing to see the AI smart enough to take good shots, make smart passes, double team high scorers, etc.

Obviously, it's easier to program 5 players' logic on one team as opposed to 11 players on one side of the ball in football. But I hope that the Tiburon team can one day program the AI to really feel like you're playing a strategic football team.

[Agame]

Ian, lots of great ideas posted in this thread!

I want to see the difference in the Elite pass rushers, if I were to play against Dwight Freeney… I want the animations to be him spinning, a super quick Edge rush….When I play Michael Strahan (just an example, I know he retired) I want to see him Bull rush, and Rip and Lift, to get by the tackle.

Please when you make the adjustment to 2010 have the ratings that “count” for game play vary by talent – a lot! A Defensive Tackle that needs double teamed should get double teamed. Please assign computer A.I. to players that demand a double team. You have stated before that the A.I. knows the personnel on the field, so if an Elite DT like Albert Haynesworth or Pat Williams is playing against an average guard the computer A.I. should automatically double team them.

When you “tune the game, maybe you could start with the best pass rusher, against the NFL league “average” starting Left Tackle. Tune it where you think it looks and feels like it should, then branch the ratings up or down from there. Most players are average; some are good, only a few are Elite. They should stand out and we should be able to assign a double team on those players.




Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.

[rhombic21]

Right, secondary and terciary options is exactly what I'd like to see -- and they would be based on threats that the offense does. Essentially what I'd like is a defense that can do this -- and it seems like it would be relatively workable to do on the game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbbSHiS_lmo

You see there, they have rules that they tell the player based on the situation. Seems like it would be workable for EA to program similar things into the game.

[therizing02]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

All good points. Out of sheer curiosity (I'm not trying to deflect here), are there any other sports games out there that you all feel have best-of-breed AI? Before I joined EA I was always kind of in awe that they were able to correctly model football so well (since it's by far the most complicated sport), but as we all know as the visual fidelity increases in games, so do the expectations of every other part of the game (i.e. animation, AI, lighting, etc) I'd like to see what everyone thinks so I am not missing anything and I can research them further.

Ian, I would certainly put any game in the Winning Eleven/Pro Evo Soccer franchise in the good adaptive AI category. Although I didn't get much time with NHL 08 I've been told by many that the AI is off the charts.

I just returned from being at EA Canada for the Community Day for FIFA 09 and I brought up the subject of Adaptable AI to producer Paul Hossack (PC Version). They are well aware that this is something that eventually needs to get worked into the series.

For FIFA 09 they have implemented tactical sliders for multiple aspects of the offensive and defending sides of the game. The CPU will adjust tactics from an offensive and defensive standpoint based on how the game is progressing. It's the first step but, a pretty big one.

As you adjust the tactics the CPU players/teammates have the intelligence to move to the proper position. They have totally revamped the positioning system for FIFA 09. Playing the Alpha build of the Next Gen version I was able to see this first hand.

With respect to EA's other football titles maybe you guys should look into the positioning aspect of the CPU player from a defensive standpoint.

Would it be possible to completely overhaul and change the ways plays are called? Take out all of the defensive playbooks and allow the user to select at a "playcalling" screen.

Man or Zone Coverage (Cover 2 or 3 Press Man coverage...etc)
Decide which LB's to blitz..if any
Choose the Type of rushing scheme for the D Line. Straight or Stunt

There obviously many other varibles to choose from but, I remember playing some of the text based games back in the day and the player had to make 4 or 5 individual decisions at the playcalling screen.

IDK, just throwing out ideas.

[Sigma4Life]

I think the strategic balance of the game would be helped immensely if defensive play calling was broken up into several components. I'd love to see a 3 tier system where you call a play for the back 4 defenders, the linebackers/nickel backs, then for the line.

Another thing that should be a must fix for 2010 is the concept of strong & weak instead of right and left. In most defenses there is no such thing as a LOLB or ROLB. The linebackers, and in many cases the defensive linemen, should line up based on the strong side.

[Sigma4Life]

And please, for the love of God, add the ability to defend a receiver's inside or outside shoulder. It has to be customizable on a per receiver basis.

Also, allow the defense to call hot routes before the offense breaks the huddle. If I make my play call early I should be given the benefit of making adjustments based on what I think the offense will do next.

[Agame]

Ian, are you here?

Thoughts.