Why the narrow-sighted "AI" is a problem on Madden and NCAA

[Tha_Don_Makaveli]

Quote: Originally Posted by SoxFan01605

Well, I think it's more of a question of the level of implementation rather than just a concept. The VIP system was nice, but it was far from perfect. There were plenty of money plays in 2K5 as well for that very reason. Now in user games, were the options and ability to adjust to thise plays better than Madden? Absolutely, but that is a function of better implementation/balancing of user functions and not of A.I.

Well yeah I get that, and that's why I prefaced my post with "It depends on whether you consider this AI."

I guess I'm not quite sure what EA is asking for. Rhombic has 20-something videos on his filefront page of stuff that needs fixing, and a good deal of it is new in 09. Yeah there were money plays on 2K5, and there are money plays in real football. But the point is that a real defense adapts to what you do. 2K went a good deal of the way towards replicating that in a game that came out 4 years ago, on a much weaker platform, and cost $20.

VIP never had the opportunity to be fully fleshed out (ahem), but the idea was a great one and I don't see any reason that EA hasn't picked up where 2K left off.

[jfsolo]

I've usually spent my time talking about these issues in the basketball forums, but it is applicable to all sports of course. I've always felt like the A.I. played at the level of someone just getting introduced to the the sport at about age 9 or 10.

The CPU has a very rudimentary "understanding" of how to play the sport, but nowhere near what is needed to mimic college or professional level tactics and strategy.

I don't play soccer games, so I can't speak to the A.I. in those games, this past year I felt that College Hoops 2k8 got up to about "9th grade" A.I. on offense and "7th grade" A.I. on defense. Yes its not where it needs to be, but it was a big step up.

Although they add more and more each year, I feel like the limited number of animations as well as the collision detection issues contributes greatly to the A.I. problems as well. So often there doesn't seem to be an animation to accurately represent certain scenarios on the field(especially for defensive players, and O line men) so a player either warps to make a play or stands there like a Zombie. Is is A.I.? or is it an animation shortage? I don't know.

A lot of people have made a lot of good suggestions on how to improve the A.I. but a lot of people have also given reasons why we're unlikely to see any of these changes in the near future.

Truth be told, I'm not expecting to see any major improvement in A.I. during the remainder of this generation. The fact that the QB and RB A.I. has been fundamentally flawed in NCAA and Madden for several years now has made me very skeptical of any serious upgrade.

[adembroski]

Responding to the suggestion that EA needs to hire football "tacticians"...

I think it bares stating that this year's involvement with the community has proven to me that these guys know football a HELL of a lot better than we ever gave them credit for in the past.

But I think it works both ways... we know football better than, perhaps, they thought we did too. At least, some of us

[stoncold32]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

All good points. Out of sheer curiosity (I'm not trying to deflect here), are there any other sports games out there that you all feel have best-of-breed AI? Before I joined EA I was always kind of in awe that they were able to correctly model football so well (since it's by far the most complicated sport), but as we all know as the visual fidelity increases in games, so do the expectations of every other part of the game (i.e. animation, AI, lighting, etc) I'd like to see what everyone thinks so I am not missing anything and I can research them further.

Decent grahpics will be overlooked(forgiven) easier than shoddy gameplay.

You can still play a game with average looking graphics, and not feel the urge to throw your controller through your flat screen as you would due to sub-par gameplay.

[Palo20]

Other ways of incorporating realistic defense:

Some 4-3 teams always use a nose tackle and the other DT usually lines up on the strong side. As mentioned before, most teams use their DEs as strong side/weak side ends, not just left and right ends. Some teams use both DTs over the guard--this one good way of really getting custom playbooks into Madden.

Also, same thing with linebackers, they're usually strong side and weak side, not left and right.

There should also be more of a variety of plays in each playbook. Right now, defense feels pretty much the same no matter which team/playbook you're using.

[Deltron]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

Responding to the suggestion that EA needs to hire football "tacticians"... I think it bares stating that this year's involvement with the community has proven to me that these guys know football a HELL of a lot better than we ever gave them credit for in the past. But I think it works both ways... we know football better than, perhaps, they thought we did too. At least, some of us

I have no doubt that they already have a few people working for them with plenty of real life football knowledge, but I wasn't referring to consulting people from the board on these issues...

I think they should hire or consult with football coaches, college level or higher, who could come in and really nail down the inner workings of coverages, fronts and run fits, detailing all of the techniques and teaching points for each individual defender which comprise the whole of the scheme. There are going to be a lot of if .. then scenarios to be worked out and I think you need to go to the experts to get that right.

I think the game shows a 'basic' understanding and representation of defensive concepts, but to go further with the AI you're going to need to hire the big guns to get it right. If we want the AI to show an awareness of the defensive and correctly distinguish between multiple priorities, those priorities have to be rock solid at the outset.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by Deltron

I have no doubt that they already have a few people working for them with plenty of real life football knowledge, but I wasn't referring to consulting people from the board on these issues... I think they should hire or consult with football coaches, college level or higher, who could come in and really nail down the inner workings of coverages, fronts and run fits, detailing all of the techniques and teaching points for each individual defender which comprise the whole of the scheme. There are going to be a lot of if .. then scenarios to be worked out and I think you need to go to the experts to get that right. I think the game shows a 'basic' understanding and representation of defensive concepts, but to go further with the AI you're going to need to hire the big guns to get it right. If we want the AI to show an awareness of the defensive and correctly distinguish between multiple priorities, those priorities have to be rock solid at the outset.

Good idea, but we already do this, except with real NFL coaches. We have no less than 5 NFL coaches (from Quality Control guys to off and def coordinators - Mike Mularkey & Jim Schwartz for example) each year come in and meet with us and talk pure football. A lead programmer and myself even flew to Cincinnati and were given a full day overview of the Bengals defense by Leslie Frazier a few years ago - they treated us just like were rookies. (Awesome experience btw)

So to clarify, your statement about us having to "hire the big guns" to get it right is not entirely true...I can tell you that we have designs written and notes taken that if all implemented could make true-life NFL AI. The problem lies in the fact that AI is without a doubt the most complex area of programming. I'd even say more-so than graphics/rendering. And the even bigger problem is that AI is hamstrung by animation. So even if we have the most advanced d-line gap assignment/technique system that's humanly possible, we have to have a very large amount of animation coverage to make it look like it's working. They go hand in hand.

So I guess what I'd sum it up with is...the AI that you all are talking about above IS the future of the Madden franchise. Without a doubt. We all know what needs to go in...I'm not an exploit guy or a tourney junkie; I'm all about creating ultra-realistic gameplay and finding the best way to still make it really fun to play. When I get my ultimate game, jet-packs won't matter because your receiver will end up out with a concussion. And nano's won't exist because real gap assignments will over-rule everything. The NFL license has actually given us this all-access approach to coaches so that's why we're set up so well for the future. But it takes a lot of time to do things like this. I mean we chose to re-write man coverage in full in 08 and that took over 10 weeks from one programmer to finish...and even still it doesn't feel "perfect" because we don't have the correct animation coverage to match it. None of this will come overnight...but I'd be interested in hearing what you all think are the most high priority issues...

[Tha_Don_Makaveli]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Good idea, but we already do this, except with real NFL coaches. We have no less than 5 NFL coaches (from Quality Control guys to off and def coordinators - Mike Mularkey & Jim Schwartz for example) each year come in and meet with us and talk pure football. A lead programmer and myself even flew to Cincinnati and were given a full day overview of the Bengals defense by Leslie Frazier a few years ago - they treated us just like were rookies. (Awesome experience btw) So to clarify, your statement about us having to "hire the big guns" to get it right is not entirely true...I can tell you that we have designs written and notes taken that if all implemented could make true-life NFL AI. The problem lies in the fact that AI is without a doubt the most complex area of programming. I'd even say more-so than graphics/rendering. And the even bigger problem is that AI is hamstrung by animation. So even if we have the most advanced d-line gap assignment/technique system that's humanly possible, we have to have a very large amount of animation coverage to make it look like it's working. They go hand in hand. So I guess what I'd sum it up with is...the AI that you all are talking about above IS the future of the Madden franchise. Without a doubt. We all know what needs to go in...I'm not an exploit guy or a tourney junkie; I'm all about creating ultra-realistic gameplay and finding the best way to still make it really fun to play. When I get my ultimate game, jet-packs won't matter because your receiver will end up out with a concussion. And nano's won't exist because real gap assignments will over-rule everything. The NFL license has actually given us this all-access approach to coaches so that's why we're set up so well for the future. But it takes a lot of time to do things like this. I mean we chose to re-write man coverage in full in 08 and that took over 10 weeks from one programmer to finish...and even still it doesn't feel "perfect" because we don't have the correct animation coverage to match it. None of this will come overnight...but I'd be interested in hearing what you all think are the most high priority issues...

I know this is the Madden forum, but can you say the same about NCAA? How many college football coaches sit down with the NCAA team? If it's NOT true for NCAA, then whose idea was it to try and make NCAA play different than Madden, and what was that decision based upon?

Because a lot of this "wide open, no defense" business flies in the face of actual college football, and I can't help but think that if you had Les Miles or Pete Carroll sitting there when that got pitched it would have never made it out of the idea phase.

Football is football, right? NFL and CFB are played under almost identical rules, on identical fields, with identical balls. It just seems, as primarily an NCAA gamer, that the "differences" implemented to differentiate NCAA from Madden are entirely arbitrary and, due to Madden being the flagship football title, the NCAA gamers are always on the short end of the realism stick compared to their Madden counterparts.