Rate the 2011 Rookies (2011 and potential)

[89OneHanded]

First of all, to the guy who posted the Patrick Peterson downer right above this, even Revis and Asomugha have a bad game from time to time. One game doesn't say anything, and you have no idea what was in his head that day. You have to look at his whole body of work, and his potential based on physical tools and positional ability. People are so high on PP because he has all the tools to become an elite player. He begins his career as a starting corner, and if he reaches his potential, he could become one of the best. That's all these ratings are saying, nothing more.

Even after reading that Julio vs Peterson post you took so much time to write, I still would rate PP the highest rook to start the season, and would still put his potential 12 points higher than Julio's. There is a hole in your logic as well, sir. Players have good games and bad games, and you're making a single serving judgement. Single serving judgments of players are how Al Davis creates busts. He watches one tape of players like Darius Heyward-Bey and immediately decides to draft him with his 7th overall pick...

Just sayin.

[Dbrentonbuck]

Quote: Originally Posted by 89OneHanded

First of all, to the guy who posted the Patrick Peterson downer right above this, even Revis and Asomugha have a bad game from time to time. One game doesn't say anything, and you have no idea what was in his head that day. You have to look at his whole body of work, and his potential based on physical tools and positional ability. People are so high on PP because he has all the tools to become an elite player. He begins his career as a starting corner, and if he reaches his potential, he could become one of the best. That's all these ratings are saying, nothing more. Even after reading that Julio vs Peterson post you took so much time to write, I still would rate PP the highest rook to start the season, and would still put his potential 12 points higher than Julio's. There is a hole in your logic as well, sir. Players have good games and bad games, and you're making a single serving judgement. Single serving judgments of players are how Al Davis creates busts. He watches one tape of players like Darius Heyward-Bey and immediately decides to draft him with his 7th overall pick... Just sayin.

Maybe you didn't read the part about them having three games against each other and Jones averaging 7 catches for 106 yards in those three games. Would you rather I use the 102 yard game or the 128 yard game to prove my point? If you take every snap where Peterson was either in man or zone against Jones from 2008-2010, Jones came out on top the majority of the time. You can say "the stats don't mean anything Peterson is elite because I say he is" until your face turns blue, but it doesn't change the fact that head to head, man to man, more times than not Jones has demonstrated he is a better player than Peterson. You can either say they are both great or they both suck, but what ever you say; the stats, game film, and facts say Julio is as good or better. But, you can keep drinking the Kool-Aid if you want.

[Palo20]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dbrentonbuck

Maybe you didn't read the part about them having three games against each other and Jones averaging 7 catches for 106 yards in those three games. Would you rather I use the 102 yard game or the 128 yard game to prove my point? If you take every snap where Peterson was either in man or zone against Jones from 2008-2010, Jones came out on top the majority of the time. You can say "the stats don't mean anything Peterson is elite because I say he is" until your face turns blue, but it doesn't change the fact that head to head, man to man, more times than not Jones has demonstrated he is a better player than Peterson. You can either say they are both great or they both suck, but what ever you say; the stats, game film, and facts say Julio is as good or better. But, you can keep drinking the Kool-Aid if you want.

Pretty sure a couple of Julio's big plays came with Peterson out of the game.

Either way, it's apples and oranges. Revis specifically matches up with the other teams best WR and the Jets play mostly man to man. LSU plays more zone and they don't always have Peterson follow WRs. So it's not a fair comparison. Also, Revis didn't have an island at Pitt, he had to earn it. Peterson will have to do the same.

[LBzrule]

I'm only going to rate the Ravens first two rookies. Yeah I'm a bit biased but think I'll be fair.

Jimmy Smith - 76/77 Overall, A Potential - 93/94 Overall
After looking at the end of the year ratings for the Ravens CB's I had to make a few modifications.

Speed - 95
Agility - 89
Accel - 94
Jump - 91
Press - 90
Man Coverage - 90
Zone Coverage - 80
Tackle - 70
Pursuit - 80
BSH - 60
POW - 75

Yes, I gave Smith 1 point higher man coverage than PP7. I actually think Smith is a better man coverage corner right now than PP7. Of course one might argue that Smith played in the big 12 where there were not many great WR prospects, but only giving up 11 catches in 2 years when in man coverage and only one of those catches for a first down is pretty damn impressive. I think Smith will be great against big physical WR's, but will struggle against the Wes Welker types who do not run deep routes but the short quick routes that require a lot of agility. That's why I have his agility at an 89. I think they severely overrate PP7 here too. I think he will be just like Smith. He will excel in covering the big WR's. But will struggle trying to cover the Wes Welker type WR's.

Torrey Smith - 71 Overall, B Potential - 86 Overall

Speed - 96/97
Accel - 94/95
Agility - 93/94
Release - 68
Route Running - 68
Catch - 75
CIT - 71
Spec Catch - 87

The biggest knock on this Smith is that he has small hands. However, that did not stop him from catching passes at Maryland. Although some of his passes were body catches. So I gave him a 75. I think the two areas he will struggle with early on is press man coverage/release and route running.

[RedZoneD25]

Quote: Originally Posted by Signaltheescape

Watkins at 78!!! are you serious? do you know he just started playing football 3 years ago? and you have him at a 78. Watkins is a 65. Just because you are 28 does not mean you will not go through rookie struggles. Especially if you only have 3 years of football experience. You must really be an eagle's homer. I love Watkins as person. He served our country and is a stand up guy but as a football player he was nothing more than a 3rd rounder only because of his potential.

Quote: Originally Posted by damien6663

agreed...but im apparetly a giants homer bu underating him LOL!

I'll take Mike Mayock's opinion with a little more clout, but your disagreement is noted.

Here's a quote from Mayock's first and only mock draft where he had Watkins to KC at 21:

Quote:

When Scott Pioli worked with the Patriots, they took a guy named Logan Mankins. I see his reincarnation in Watkins. I think Watkins is a Pioli guy. He's a try-hard kid. He's gifted, tough and mean. You plug him in at right tackle in Year 1, and he'll be able to move inside later, if needed.

[at23steelers]

This draft class had above average talent at defensive line and good depth at many positions in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. But as for top players, it lacked compared to other drafts. Btw, I think a good comparison for Ponder is a less accurate Chad Pennington. They both have mediocre arm strength, struggle with injuries, and average potential.

[Tengo Juego]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dbrentonbuck

I don't understand people predicting Peterson to be the next Revis or even a shut down corner for that matter. The media fell in love with this guy and he has ridden the hype machine all the way to the bank. Lets look at some facts shall we? I couldn't find the numbers for Revis 2010 season laid out the way I want them, so I am using numbers from the 2009 season here. Lets look at Revis' numbers against the elite receivers in the NFL. Name,Team Catches-Yards-TD Andre Johnson, Texans 4-35-0 Randy Moss, Patriots 4-24-0 Marques Colston, Saints 2-33-0 Terrell Owens, Bills 3-13-0 Mike Sims-Walker, Jaguars 3-49-1 Randy Moss, Patriots 5-34-1 Steve Smith, Panthers 1-5-0 Terrell Owens, Bills 3-31-0 Roddy White, Falcons 4-33-0 Reggie Wayne, Colts 3-33-0 Chad Ochocinco*, Bengals 0-0-0

Let's not compare an MVP-caliber season to a Junior CFB Season. Out of curiosity, why didn't you grab his most recent stats? Why the 09 season?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dbrentonbuck

Now, I notice you have Julio Jones' potential rated a full 12 points lower than Peterson's. You also say he will not go on to become a play maker and that he will just be a possession receiver and redzone threat. 6 months ago Patrick Peterson and Julio Jones spent almost an entire game locked up head to head. Peterson had 6 tackles, 3 pass break ups and 0 interceptions while Julio Jones had 10 catches for 89 yards and a TD where he beat Peterson in one on one man to man coverage. You don't think Jones will be an elite wide receiver in the NFL. Fair enough. But, how can you then go on to say Peterson will be the next Revis when a guy you don't think will be an elite WR just embarrassed him on national TV less than 6 months ago? There is a hole in your logic. So, either Jones is elite too or Peterson is not. It cannot be both. I am using the 2010 game because that is most recent and it is the game where they went head to head for the majority of the game, but Julio averages 7 catches for 106 yards per game against Peterson. That doesn't sound like an elite shut down corner to me unless Jones is better than Moss, Johnson, White, Wayne, Smith etc. It has to be one or the other. Jones can't just be ok while Peterson is elite. Either they are both mediocre or they are both elite.

Well, at least you're consistently biased. You continue to use an inaccurate(at the very least unfounded) average stat of the PP7 vs JJ8 match-up. He does not average 7 catches and 106yds against PP7, he averaged that against LSU's defense.

And you continue to demand that these two players be rated on the same scale. 1) You don't rate a player on 3 performances. 2) You're definitely not basing ratings on stats. 3) They don't even play the same position!

Lastly, it's the guy's opinion. I think you forgot that.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dbrentonbuck

Maybe you didn't read the part about them having three games against each other and Jones averaging 7 catches for 106 yards in those three games. Would you rather I use the 102 yard game or the 128 yard game to prove my point? If you take every snap where Peterson was either in man or zone against Jones from 2008-2010, Jones came out on top the majority of the time. You can say "the stats don't mean anything Peterson is elite because I say he is" until your face turns blue, but it doesn't change the fact that head to head, man to man, more times than not Jones has demonstrated he is a better player than Peterson. You can either say they are both great or they both suck, but what ever you say; the stats, game film, and facts say Julio is as good or better. But, you can keep drinking the Kool-Aid if you want.

There's that stat again... Same argument, different post. And I'd prefer you use the 102 yard game. Seeing as 73 of those yards came on one play, a screen pass, in which Peterson was not in the game for... y'know, if we're trying to boost our argument.

Watch the video I posted, and actually watch it this time. Went ahead and watched your rebuttal video, and realized that the person who uploaded it cut a lot of plays. Plays where PP7 defended Julio very well.

[Dbrentonbuck]

The video I posted had entire plays and commentary talking about the match up between Peterson and Jones... yours were cut and didn't show slow motion replays where you can clearly see PP7 getting smoked by Jones on at least 3 plays that game in man to man coverage. Even the commentators talk about how Jones beat Peterson in man to man.

Did Jones win every play? No. Peterson made some good plays, but Jones won the majority of the matchups. Anyone with eyes can see that. I think it is funny that you cannot admit that. Your argument is that in one game Peterson wasn't matched up against Jones for a big play. Ok, then throw that game out. That is why I am using the most recent game, because for the most part, they were head to head the whole game. Not every single play (Revis also got beat by another AL WR in that game in man to man) but most of the time. So, use THAT footage to prove to me that Peterson was better than Jones. All that you can tell me is that Peterson wasn't in the game when JJ scored on the screen pass. I get that. So, lets talk about when they were in the game together. Tell me about how Peterson shut down Julio one on one for a whole game. He didn't. You can't. It is that simple, yet you continue insist that Peterson is a far superior player. Whatever. I am not buying it. PP7 had his chance to prove he was elite against Julio Jones and he didn't rise to the occasion.

Look, this is pointless because you are just going to hold to your opinion and never admit the truth. 6 months ago Peterson could not stop Jones. In the three games that these two men have been on the field together, Jones has had the better game each time. The fact is, no matter how many times you say other wise, PP7 couldn't stop Jones man to man. Since the consensus seems to be that Jones will be an average NFL receiver, that means that 6 months ago, PP7 could not stop an average NFL receiver from embarrassing him. You can spin that any way you want. It doesn't change what happened. You can't revise history to suit your needs. The fact is, JJ was better than PP just 6 months ago. We both have our opinions. You have done nothing to change mine and I don't think you are changing yours. Your videos did nothing to show me Peterson shut down Jones or even contained him. The big plays he made in that footage wasn't against Jones. With the exception of the screen pass, most of the big plays Jones made were against Peterson. That is the bottom line.