Tendency edits that are game changers for realism?

[J9mils]

To add to that while you're in there. Should adjust some guys to EXOPLOSIVE lay up package to get more aggressive drives to the rim

[vannwolfhawk]

After continuing to edit and test a few things the fast break / cutter helps fast breaks greatly. I went 65 for all 80 plus open shooters, 35 below 80. Stretch 4's and 5's I went 30/35-15-0 depending. Definitely spreads the floor out in transition. Great spacing now... Or better I should say...

I then adjusted the whole leagues pass to open man tendency, then attributes for passing IQ and vision. That is a game changer in itself. Basically went 50-65-80-90-95 and put IQ 5 points higher then what the players vision was. All Point guards I put 75 -95. I see awesome drive and kicks and jump passes now. It looks great!

The post game I went and made sure face up and backdown equaled 100. With a lot of guys I went 85-15. That really helped the post game and you are getting 1 or the other and not back in forth like I am sure you have all seen. Also went higher across the league in aggressive backdowns as they took more time in the post before making a move. Still not a fan of the up and under. CPU get's traveling call way too much. Might have to lower that considerably league wide.

I also got rid of almost all driving moves except a few guys have hesitation dribble. I basically took and used the drive setup hesitation instead of the dribbling hesitation. You just don't see guys doing moves while driving to the basket. I just set it all up to come from drive setup instead of the actual drive. I also globally did everyone for no dribble between 95-100. Then the spin move I use the spin layups tendency and not on the spin on drives. Spin on drives they did for no reason or to create an advantage. The spin layup creates contact and is a sweet animation. I also got rid of floaters globally and only gave them to elite guys who use them like a Rondo.

I just posted this in my playbook thread too...

Quote:

FYI for everyone who follows this thread. After testing coaching profiles and run plays I can 100% confirm that with play calls set at 100 you will see the whole playbooks used. I tested non stop at all levels 0-25-50-75-90-95-100 and even at 90 I was seeing the same plays being called and not a whole lot of variety. As soon as I went to 100 I started seeing plays from deep within the playbooks and within each play type. You will still see fast breaks on misses and freelance offense so don't worry. Not sure if it was like this the last few years but it's a huge difference in how the CPU plays and calls a game... Personally I will probably set everyone to 100 now. In testing I was testing CPU vs CPU and just watching whole games.

Quote: Originally Posted by J9mils

Tune driving lay up for guys. Its low for a lot of playets and is a reason most playets drive stop and do one those awful standing lay ups that always gets blocked. Also going to vitals for all players and switching dominate dunk hand to both helps stop guys from doing a weak lay up right into a block. Cuz I mean most guys in the nba can finish with either hand

Yes I definitely got to that 1 early and have edited that already for the whole league. Attaching finish strong, driving layup, and drive tendency all tie together. I did what you did with Explosive layup package which is why I believe I said I was good with the attacking for guys like John Wall, Westbrook (already had It I believe), etc. But that package doesn't look right for other guys which is why I wouldn't give it to everyone but I'm with you on the slow down lay up's at times... Balancing those 3 areas above help. Along with no dribble moves speeds them up through momentum and nothing slowing them up on their drives...

I did a ton of other things I will post laster. I am done editing all the global changes for my whole roster and have set numbers for a base moving forward in different areas for the best gameplay animations, gameplay, etc. I just need to go do the whole league now to get players & teams to play like themselves with shooting, attacking, driving, and from when and where. It's awesome we have all the tools to do this but extremely frustrating we have to do this much work to get the game to play properly. It's crazy to me. I wish I wasn't so OCD but man I just want to be able to play this game and can't until it plays right Dam$it! LOL

Good stuff though you guys!

[vannwolfhawk]

So, I have been testing everything I do in CPU vs CPU games and everything looks and played amazing, but I finally just went in and played a game with me vs CPU and all I can say is WOW! Wide open shot after wide open shot, drive and kicks, driving stepback jumpers to create space on me, quick ball movement, decisive dribble attacks, playbooks all done with plays that the CPU was executing flawlessly, & CPU players taking what I gave them in driving left or right so no matter how I guarded them they were eating me up. I couldn't even swipe to steal a ball as CPU was pump faking and jabbing every time they caught the ball & if I reached they teached (not a word I know) LOL! Everything was a long closeout so I'd run at them and like real basketball and what I always teach is always attack a guy in the direction he's coming at you. Well, they did and ate me up every time. To add to all that they were running the break & had shooters in lanes (after tweaking all the transition spot/cut ratings) and were killing me on my misses and fast breaks. I'd have to manually go and cover shooters but while that was going on the CPU would go into it's secondary break and come off a PNR away from me. LOL It was truly crazy!

It made me think 2k has probably tried ratings like this, but in no way would it appeal to the masses as it is way to HARD! I had to redo my sliders (still working on new slider for User vs CPU games) completely. I had a great set for CPU vs CPU games, but they don't translate. To be honest it was a little disheartening after all the editing knowing I will have to go and tweak some more things to dumb the cpu down or find a perfect slider set if thats possible here... The 1 good thing is now that everything is scaled it's an easy fix by mass editing everything down 5-10-15 points in a category easily fixing an area if necessary. I almost want to upload this so you guys can try it. Keep in mind I had a really solid slider set where I was playing on HOF level and had CPU with 64 inside success, 62 close, 58 mid, and 52 3 pt., had a lot of their defensive settings maxed out, on ball at 82, and all contact vs me at 100 and I was having very realistic and close games. Every game came down to last few minutes, stats were solid as well as percentages. It's all in how you play and everyone plays differently and I like a challenge. Again, I went in with these edits and same sliders and it was crazy after the edits. So, I had to really dumb the CPU down and I got better the more I played but defense wasn't fun it was more like I was always on my heels. Which leads me to this...

I'm curious on what everyone else's thoughts are here. Basically I created the CPU AI to be almost unbeatable by creating a realistic game of basketball as far as reading & reacting, executing plays with multiple options in them, and performing real life moves & reads. In CPU vs CPU but when playing as a User it's like playing the boss level. LOL! I guess I am on HOF though so maybe lowering the level with these edits would be something to try?! What are your thoughts on realism and are we sure we want all of this? There has to be a balance somewhere and it has to meet little 10 year old Timmy as well as the hardcore gamer. Do you think 2k has dabbled with ratings like this and tested this and said no way? It has to be why we see some things like dribble R/L tendency at 95 or 5 for a lot of guys so we know whats coming and we can take it away. Only guys like Lebron or superstars were given numbers like 40-50-60 to be smart enough to go 1 way or the other. That is easy when you only have 1 guy doing that per team. what if we have 5 guys on the court at the same time doing that? Does real basketball IQ and reading & reacting translate into a video game? How do you find that balance where they do not play perfect but are not stupid either. Making mistakes and turnovers are all part of the game as well. Is it impossible to get every CPU player right? As an example I was testing Celtics & Pelicans (probably tested and watched 100 quarters after tweaking and testing and testing and tweaking). J. Nelson would drive and draw a 2nd defender with a wide open guy in the ball side corner but wouldn't make the pass. It drove me crazy hence how I started editing the pass to open man, passing vision, and passing IQ stuff... Then he started making those passes and driving and kicking and making the proper reads. OK great! But this same Jameer Nelson was also going in and never using setback jumpers and he was forcing things into traffic and horrible lay up animations. OK, edited that and got him doing his setback jumpers and not forcing things and making a read. Then I had Jaylen Brown on the other hand who was attacking and not kicking as well (which if you watch any Celtic games you know when he drives he's looking to get to the rack and not kick) so I left his vision and pass to open man down to make sure he played as himself. I don't want him to kick in that same scenario as Jameer. It's a fine line in capturing someones specific tendencies. My point is unless you literally watch game after game IRL to know a players tendencies & style and moves he does & then go and do the same thing in watching CPU vs CPU games for hours upon hours how can you truly capture a player? Now I am just talking about 1 or 2 players here. There are how many in the league?

Another example is Kyrie. I want him to attack, use stepback mid range jumpers, kick occasionally when he draws 2 defenders, use his sizeup dribbles & showcase his ball handling, etc. Where is that balance at where we get what we want from a player but not make him perfect in every situation and the CPU AI always makes the right reads? Even though we all are like why didn't he pass to that guy he was wide open? Why did he force that play with 2 defenders smothering him? Why did he take that pull up when he wasn't open? All things we see in real life (bad reads/mistakes/Turnovers) but if we see it in a video game it's like the game is broke, ratings suck. LOL! Another thing and on a side note another big attribute that ties into all this is the shot IQ attribute where a player makes the read and decision in what is best shot read or pass read with pass IQ.

Anyways, sorry for the rant. It all just made me think as much as the playbooks bug me, the players being idle at times bug me, & as much as ratings and players not playing like themselves at times bugs me, I can see why it would have to be like this for the millions of kids and casuals who buy this game. I can only imagine how hard this is to code, edit, & get right to make and appease everyone as well as finding that balance in gameplay and realism. We are the minority and I get that. Most people won't spend 100's of hours editing let alone even playing the game. We are all on OS because we love Basketball as well as video games, 2K, and it's are way to create competition, release from every day life, etc. Bottom line is, I shouldn't be complaining about why this is this way or that way as I get that it's a business and it's about having fun and playing a game but also them making money. The majority of people wouldn't enjoy or have fun like this which means they lose money. I always try and create a competitive game that remains realistic and represents real basketball. I went a little overboard and have done way more editing than I ever have this year (been playing 2k since the 1st edition in 99-00)?! Probably because all these things make the game play incredible. I want to play the CPU and have an extreme challenge yet realistic game of basketball.

What are your thoughts? As gamers do we expect perfection and too much from a company? Will we ever get a CPU AI to play realistically? Will ratings ever be done for realism and how it translates into gameplay? Do you think 2k has tried and tested ratings like this? Will we ever be happy? Whether it's draft classes, ratings, my league, sim stats, player shots, accessories, help defense is broke, plays are broke, no real team specific plays (minus freelances) in the teams playbooks, etc... What's the solution? What's the perfect formula? How hard is it to code AI? Is 2k under staffed in specific departments to truly achieve what we all want? Meaning, should there be multiple roster guys, more eyes & guys testing the game and working in specific areas here or there? For example I only know of beds on rosters, czar on offense with plays & freelance, and OG has defense. They have engineers they work with. You got guys like Sam Pham who breaks the game down in a week and destroying CPU AI logic. Wouldn't he be a huge help to 2k? Anyways, I'm done. SORRY! LOL

[robin333]

Great thread.
I wish Visual Concept release their games with full "true to life" tendencies (Sonicmage seems to be working on a 2017 roster), playbooks edits (like yourself), sig shot edits....
To me it's like the game is unfinished.
I never played pro am or my player but I don't see why it would alter or kill the Fun Factor or make the game too hard. Sliders & difficulty are there to please every type of players.
Thankfully some good roster makers on Os make the game way better but to me, it's frustrating because i feel like the game never reaches its full potential....

Sorry for my english

[STLRams]

Man, good stuff in this thread. To bad I'm on PS4, will have to manually input your tendency edits. Vann can you post on the first page of this thread a list of your tendency edits/suggestions that you have discovered for better gameplay that you have discussed in this thread.

[vannwolfhawk]

Quote: Originally Posted by robin333

Great thread. I wish Visual Concept release their games with full "true to life" tendencies (Sonicmage seems to be working on a 2017 roster), playbooks edits (like yourself), sig shot edits.... To me it's like the game is unfinished. I never played pro am or my player but I don't see why it would alter or kill the Fun Factor or make the game too hard. Sliders & difficulty are there to please every type of players. Thankfully some good roster makers on Os make the game way better but to me, it's frustrating because i feel like the game never reaches its full potential.... Sorry for my english

You nailed it. I also feel like I buy a unfinished game every year. That was why I passed on the game the last 2 years. I bought the game both years though and tried them just wasn’t feeling them. The 1st thing I always do is though look at the playbooks, test a bit and then look at the rosters. Last few years I’m looking Ike it’s not even worth it. This year I loved what I saw gameplay and motion wise. I’ve spent a month a half editing a game rather then playing it. All of us work for 2k but don’t get paid. Lol I wonder if possible to release 2 rosters at release? 1 for quick play now and 1 for realism? Use for example the sim world roster as a base for next year for its sim roster. But still have beds and 2k does currently for the masses? The thing is no roster will be perfect having EVERY player playing to his real life self. At least not with just 1 person doing it. It’s too much of an area to focus on. If you notice 2k does a decent job of nailing their stars down (at least closer then everyone else) tendency wise. For example isiah Thomas and hardens stepbacks. A lot of players like that with their real life set up dribbling animations... but ya not sure I can continue this next year. I might just buy every 2-3 years now. Way too much work to get it right. This shouldn’t be something we do every year. But again we are minority and a lot of people don’t even notice what some of us do let alone care. They just want to hop in to online quick games. Well for those of us who want to play cpu it’s a problem... I’m not sure solution besides 2k using their community more and get more resources in these areas?!

Btw, the 65/35 (majority) and 85/15/0 for elite shooters and bigs edit too the fastbreak spot up and cut tendency 100% fixed fast breaks! Spacing is great! No cross crossing. Simple fix for fast breaks and realistic gameplay and fast breaks!

[JBCAROLINAKID]

I can't wait til u put your file up. I play CPU vs CPU and listening to your edits has me drooling lol as I am dying to run some games but haven't found a finished roster with real edits done yet.

[robin333]

Quote: Originally Posted by vannwolfhawk

You nailed it. I also feel like I buy a unfinished game every year. That was why I passed on the game the last 2 years. I bought the game, 1st thing I always do is look at playbook, test a bit and look at rosters. Last few years I’m looking Ike it’s not even worth it. This year I loved what I saw gameplay and motion wise. I’ve spent a month a half editing a game rather then playing it. All of us work for 2k but don’t get paid. Lol I wonder if possible to release 2 rosters at release? 1 for quick play now and 1 for realism? Use for example the sim world roster as a base for next year for its sim roster. But still have beds and 2k does currently for the masses? The thing is no roster will be perfect having EVERY player playing to his real life self. At least not with just 1 person doing it. It’s too much of an area to focus on. If you notice 2k does a decent job of nailing their stars down (at least closer then everyone else) tendency wise. For example isiah Thomas and hardens stepbacks. A lot of players like that with their real life set up dribbling animations... but ya not sure I can continue this next year. I might just buy every 2-3 years now. Way too much work to get it right. This shouldn’t be something we do every year. But again we are minority and a lot of people don’t even notice what some of us do let alone care. They just want to hop in to online quick games. Well for those of us who want to play cpu it’s a problem... I’m not sure solution besides 2k using their community more and get more resources in these areas?! Btw, the 65/35 (majority) and 85/15/0 for elite shooters and bigs edit too the fastbreak spot up and cut tendency 100% fixed fast breaks! Spacing is great! No cross crossing. Simple fix for fast breaks and realistic gameplay and fast breaks!

Thanks for your work on the playbooks. It's definitely a game changer!
I'm hoping for a roster with Sonicmage's work & yours on PS4