Do players develop based on production?

[darkknightrises]

Quote: Originally Posted by briggm

It's broken (or at least really poorly designed) Training schedules can't help the other 29 teams, where way too many players are declining too quickly. I ran two sims tonight and at the start of the second season, pretty much every player near the age of 30 and up had lost between 2-6 overall points. There were only a handful of exceptions, like LeBron who stayed the same. The Spurs practically became a joke overnight. Now I know their big three can't be expected to maintain their overalls forever, but when they're declining by like 4-5 points each, in addition to every other semi-old player on the team like Splitter, Bonner, Diaw and Green (who's what, 28?) all declining by several points as well (because there's absolutely no variation to how age based regression works in the game) then you have a problem where the system is bugged/broken.

Yeah I saw in a sim like 9 guys decline on just the bulls and a lot of them where 4-6 points that is crazy to have that many guys decline in 1 season.

[dwayne12345]

I actually understand where our disconnect is. I am not using 2k's out of box rosters as I did test MyLeague's and saw the same problems you all are illustrating. The thing is I figured out early how to fix it and did so in my personal roster.

The reason guys like Danny Green, Patrick Beverly, Roy Hibbert, Boris Diaw, etc. decline so rapidly is the way the potential rating works this year. You have to give the person that you don't want to see rapidly decline a potential rating that is AT LEAST 1 or 2 points more than their overall. If you do that for the guys who you feel are unrealistically declining you'll see the problem dissipate to realistic levels.

I completely forgot that that was a thing as I haven't used 2k's rosters for a MyGM MyLeague at all so I have a different experience than what's being illustrated here.

Quote:

The problem, though (which is what I think it ultimately bothering us) is that player decline should not be so sharp or consistent for everybody. Each of these lines does not have have the same slope when declining. If it were 2k they would, and the weaker role players would be completely out of the league, every time without fail, by age 29-30. Heck, even for top level players you can see decline isn't consistent every year. The predictive nature of player decline is what's taking the fun away for so many of us, not the fact that players are declining.

To your point here JooseGoose I have always agreed that the problem isn't the ratings it's the way the CPU applies the ratings which is also semi-fixable. If a coaches Line-Up Performance Factor slider is higher than they will rely less on playing who is better and more on playing who is having good games.

With that in mind Dwyane Wade in 3 years might have the skills of an average 77 overall rated NBA player. Having him averaging 20 points a night for you won't help you win but he will get those minutes to do so regardless thanks to his coach favoring him. This is what you are seeing with Kobe Bryant this year with the Lakers. He's not a guy who you want taking all your shots but he does so anyway and his team loses as a result.

I have learned Stats and Overall ratings are only loosely connected. For example take Nick Young who is rated in the mid 70's. If you take down the shot tendency rating and touch rating of his teammates into the 50's, 40's and you raise his shot tendency and touch rating into the 90's you'll see Nick Young averaging 20+ a night.

The game has all the tools in it to make it work the problem is as was said above that the CPU doesn't utilize things like evolving a players tendency's, making them your #1 scoring option, and giving them heavy minutes unless their overall rating is high.

[ffaacc03]

I believe the actual system is about right, with very, very few exceptions (shooting and iq stats would age differently, etc).

What really needs the extra effort is the "peak age" of players and that is a whole other story and issue. It has to be addressed on a player to player base and while I havent checked this on 2K15, on prior versions it wasnt an editable variable (unless via an unofficial roster editor like RMC, "K should continue to expand the roster editor as almost nothing should be hidden nor uneditable, also looking at you: hotspots, hot zones, coaches grades, team chemestry, GMs roster build and draft stances, teams default freelance, etc), hopefully we get this to be editable for us, if not for 15 for 16.

[joosegoose]

Went looking around my MyLeague to find the veterans I could, took a few screenshots.

Make of it what you wish.

[dwayne12345]

Quote: Originally Posted by joosegoose

Went looking around my MyLeague to find the veterans I could, took a few screenshots. Make of it what you wish.

Yea the issue is with the rosters you are using. I don't have this problem with my Association modes. Try using different rosters or adjusting the potential ratings to be 2 points more than those players overall ratings..

[joosegoose]

Quote: Originally Posted by dwayne12345

Yea the issue is with the rosters you are using. I don't have this problem with my Association modes. Try using different rosters or adjusting the potential ratings to be 2 points more than those players overall ratings..

Granted, I've never tried doing that to an entire roster, but I have done that for various guys before to try and stop the bleeding. Pekovic here was one such guy (I even increased his ratings so he's actually rated higher in the picture than he otherwise would have been); it's never done a thing for me. Could be a case of small sample size though.

[dwayne12345]

Quote: Originally Posted by joosegoose

Granted, I've never tried doing that to an entire roster, but I have done that for various guys before to try and stop the bleeding. Pekovic here was one such guy (I even increased his ratings so he's actually rated higher in the picture than he otherwise would have been); it's never done a thing for me. Could be a case of small sample size though.

Pekovic is a guy who I want to fall off in my franchise as I feel that's where he's headed in real life. He has the big long term contract and has never played more than 65 games in a season in his first 4 years. He's also 29 years old as of this season. There is no way Pekovic is still anywhere near a starting lineup in 3-4 years. I have always been OK with his sharp decline.

It's better to try it on sub 28 year old non injury prone guys. Constant injuries will cause a decline in a player as well as they won't be able to train consistently to keep their skills sharp.

Evans, McGee, Horford, Shump, D Will, Pekovic are examples from your slide of very injury prone players who are most likely not improving. Deron Williams for one is in danger of entering Baron Davis territory in a few years.

The other thing is guys may not be injury prone now but 5 years into the franchise have accumulated enough injuries to a single body part to make them so. The rest of those guys in your images have potential ratings equal with their current overalls and are well past their primes by the point in your myleague.

[joosegoose]

Quote: Originally Posted by dwayne12345

Pekovic is a guy who I want to fall off in my franchise as I feel that's where he's headed in real life. He has the big long term contract and has never played more than 65 games in a season in his first 4 years. He's also 29 years old as of this season. There is no way Pekovic is still anywhere near a starting lineup in 3-4 years. I have always been OK with his sharp decline. It's better to try it on sub 28 year old non injury prone guys. Constant injuries will cause a decline in a player as well as they won't be able to train consistently to keep their skills sharp. Evans, McGee, Horford, Shump, D Will, Pekovic are examples from your slide of very injury prone players who are most likely not improving. Deron Williams for one is in danger of entering Baron Davis territory in a few years. The other thing is guys may not be injury prone now but 5 years into the franchise have accumulated enough injuries to a single body part to make them so. The rest of those guys in your images have potential ratings equal with their current overalls and are well past their primes by the point in your myleague.

Agree on Pekovic, though it's worth mentioning he really didn't suffer from any injuries in the game. His decline was completely independent of injury (though that likely won't be the case in real life). I've raised potential for many, many guys before (with no success) but Pekovic was the only one in the above images so I mentioned him.

To be clear, there are plenty more where the above images came from, the guys above were just the first ones I came across when doing a quick scan of the league, and were all the appropriate age. They have regressed exactly like every other player has; 3-4 overall decreases every single year they start to regress.

Vasquez, Wolters, Green, Shumpert, Mack, are absolutely not "past their prime." It's not reasonable to expect all of them (or any, really) to further improve but for all of them to be completely out of the NBA at or before age 30 is a bit silly, no? Especially if you consider all of the other guys (and everyone else of the same age that I didn't bother to include), it's nowhere near realistic. Even Pekovic, I agree he won't be a starter in a few years but guaranteed out of the NBA?

I forgot to mention, the reason I even did this scan in the first place was because I had noticed that, except for a few teams with stacked decks, every team in my league was horrible (~70 overall). I looked around to see if the computer generated players were all that bad (I've lowered draft quality to be closer to real life), but no, there's just a complete lack of veterans.

I'll probably go through and try what you've done--apply potential changes to everyone. It's going to stink because I've loved getting to use Beds' updated official rosters but if there's any chance it brings things closer to normalcy, it'll be worth it.