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TalentedJB · 08-13-2017, 12:55 PM

So, I wrote this about 2-3 weeks ago prior to the community day event 2k held where they invited hoopers from the community to try out some 1v1 Play Now action. I never got a chance to share this anywhere as I wrote it for my friend's Pro-Am/2K blog, but it was too long to post. I was to make edits on it and shorten it, but never got a chance to. So fast-forwarding to now, I'm sharing with you guys because shooting on 2K is a heated and ongoing discussion on SM -- thought i'd share my opinions on it. Sorry 4 the long read.

To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing

With the upcoming release of NBA 2K18 less than 50 days away, much of the community is in a frenzy. Fidgeting at their keyboards and glued to their browsers waiting painstakingly for any ounce of news 2K is willing to release. One of the hottest talking points -- one which relentlessly invites discussion across social media and within console parties – has been whether green releases should make a return or nah in 18.

I done peeped many a threads, and heard many a grievances from hundreds of 2K players, Park players, PRO-AM players, Team-up ballers, and even the sim heavy cats which play HOF My League. My sentiment has remained the same all-year: keep greens but tune their frequency and difficulty.

At this point in 2K17 shooting has been modified about a gazillion times. When the game first came out, sharps were godly as not only did they have HOF Limitless Range but from what I remember, Deep Range Deadeye was so OP, sharps were making contested shots in everyone’s face! Couple that with moving screens being permitted and the ease of getting a green release, and it was a loop fest every game as sharps abused moving screens by Hall of Fame Brick Wall’s and shook off contests like Kobe BEAN Bryant in his prime (I’m looking at you Agent00 lol).

A couple patches here, numerous fixes and tunes there and the shooting landscape within the current patch and build has become a bit more sensible per say. For example, if you contest a Sharp, more than likely they’ll miss, if you leave them open and/or they create enough space (elite 3 or hop shot your ***) they have a high chance of not only making the shot but of obtaining a green release. The latter is reasonable. Sharps/Stretch Bigs should definitely be rewarded not only for taking open shots but for also knowing their release as they are the highest rated shooters in the game --this is pretty much a consensus across the 2K community.

Now, this is where the discrepancy and controversy lies: let’s say I’m a Paint Protector with a maxed out 60 three rating. I shoot an uncontested, open 3 from the left corner -- I know my release, have a hotspot there, all the appropriate badges: Catch & Shoot, Corner Specialist etc. Let’s even say the passer who gets me the rock is a Playmaker with Hall of Fame Dimer, should I get a green for that? Most 2K heads would give you an unequivocal YES! You should be rewarded with a green release, guaranteed 3 points!

I would say however: “no, I should not get a green for that, a guaranteed made shot, hell no”. Now here’s why.

Around this time last year, right before ’17 was to release, I remember reading developer blogs and interviews, watching videos regarding archetypes and within those were the repeated declarations: “archetypes will matter/skills will matter”. Fast forward to one month left in the game, and one can argue skills nor archetypes have not mattered (that it was indeed 2K’s plan to have them matter, yet for some reason or another developers came up short in execution) for players have found ways to operate beyond (exploited?) the limitations of what archetypes were meant to do in 2K17. I’d like to see that change in September.

For example, if you have under a 65 three, you should not be a viable and/or respectable threat from three, you should definitely be a threat but a consistent three point shooter who gets greens? Nah. A realistic threat in a 5 out? Nah (teams should be able to leave you wide). Even if you know your shot? Nah. I’d say if you’re the aforementioned Paint Protector and you shoot 10 wide open 3’s in the corner off a Hall of Fame Dimer, you should make 30-35%, even if you know your release and have all the appropriate badges, with 1 or 2 of those shots being green. Not saying you shouldn’t make any of them, but for Lockdowns, Glass Cleaners, Slashers, Paint Protector’s to shoot the same clip as a Sharp from 3? Is a bit unbalanced don’t you think?

But JB, it’s a video game, we should be rewarded for taking open shots, we should make all of our open shots if we know our release!

Umm, nah. First of all, 2K strives to be a basketball Sim which emulates the NBA game. Even Steph Curry, the world’s greatest shooter doesn’t make all of his wide open 3’s (let alone shots) in games. And you don’t think he knows his release? You don’t think he’s perfected his jumper to the point where he knows the most optimal point to release the ball. You don’t think he’s spent countless, if not thousands of hours in the gym, refining his shot throughout his lifetime? All this, and guess what, he still misses wide open shots. Bricks on wide open shots are as just as much apart of basketball as makes on contested shots are. I’d just like to see ratings matter a bit more.

I’d like to see non-shooters become liabilities from the 3 point line, then if one team were to run a 5 out it would have to be with 5 shooters: a true 5 out. You would see greater variety in lineups if this happened. Strengths & weaknesses, 2K would turn into more of a chess match than checkers. For if one team brings out 3 sharps on the wing and 2 Tall Sharps/Stretches you know for sure you’re in for a long day at the 3 point line, but also you’ll probably dominant defensively and on the boards. The other team knows this of course, but it was a team and strategic decision to go with that lineup – they’ll have to live with the strengths and weaknesses of having all those shooters on the floor.

I played Private HOF Team-up prior to taking Pro AM seriously, and for people who’ve played the mode, you know the gameplay on HOF is much more realistic. Badges and Hotspots on HOF Team-Up don’t take precedent over ratings; badges simply augment ratings, they don’t dictate the success nor are they the underlying factor on whether a shot goes in or not.

For example, let’s say you play with the Clippers and you’re using Jamal Crawford at the 2 who has Corner Specialist Bronze & Catch & Shoot Bronze with an 80 Open Shot 3pt rating. If you shoot ten wide open shoots with him from a Chris Paul, Dimer Gold pass, and you know his shot, you’ll make around 4-7 of those shots. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. The reason you won’t make them all however is because on HOF despite you may knowing Crawford’s shot, the shot percentages are much more aligned with real life percentages. Now the game will still reward you, you’ll definitely get a green but the frequency won’t be as high – you may even get two or three on ten wide open shots. ****, maybe Pro-Am and the competitive modes should be played on HOF (future post)?

With all that being said, I’m a fan of greens, I think they should stay. I think for the E-League specifically and streamed Pro-Am games it would be wild exciting to see someone get a green shot after working towards a smart one. I even think 2K should somehow implement a way to display green shot releases to everyone on the court! Even to defenders! How dope would it be to know you played good D and in that specific possession if the variables were right (great shot, on fire, ball movement prior to the shot, you have the actual high ratings, opposing team has momentum etc.) there was nothing you could do about it. You were simply drained, that’ll be dope to have in 2k, just make that super rare lol.

In all, I think reducing the frequency of greens, especially for non-shooters would elevate the game of many in the community. Let’s be honest, the entire Pro Am/Park community has become TOO dependent on getting greens, rather than simply taking smart, basketball shots. You got folk talking “man that should be green” rather than examining whether they took a good shot or not lol.

I got faith in 2K going into 18; I think they’ll get shooting right. Hopefully they can balance stick skills and ratings, let’s just pray they don’t give into the casuals after the first 3 weeks.
One-Love Y’all.

- TalentedJB

thedream2k16 · 08-13-2017, 01:07 PM

There should not be guaranteed shots success should always be contingent on ratings, defensive pressure, spot on court etc etc

TalentedJB · 08-13-2017, 01:40 PM

I agree wholeheartedly! Now try telling that to the entire Pro-Am/Park community, as well as the people 2K actually invites and listens to during their feedback session.

VAWereWolf65 · 08-13-2017, 02:18 PM

This was my proposal:

MyPark: Yes greens, 100% chance of making a green

ProAm: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100%

Offline Gamemodes: Option to turn them off or on

Play Now Online/Myteam/Etc: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100%

jfsolo · 08-13-2017, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedream2k16


	There should not be guaranteed shots success should always be contingent on ratings, defensive pressure, spot on court etc etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by TalentedJB


	I agree wholeheartedly! Now try telling that to the entire Pro-Am/Park community, as well as the people 2K actually invites and listens to during their feedback session.

The greens will probably be tuned down quite a bit, but sadly I don't think they have the will to go against the wishes of most online players by choosing realism over fun factor by getting rid of greens totally.

TalentedJB · 08-13-2017, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VAWereWolf65


	This was my proposal: MyPark: Yes greens, 100% chance of making a green ProAm: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100% Offline Gamemodes: Option to turn them off or on Play Now Online/Myteam/Etc: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100%

Great idea, this has the potential to keep everyone happy. Or even if they went the madden 18 route and have different play styles/difficulties going into 18. Ala, Sim, Arcade, Competitive.

MoodMuzik · 08-13-2017, 02:29 PM

Greens are fine, and for video game/fun aspect, keep them 100%.

Just nerf the p*ss out of them to a true rarity.

Kushmir · 08-13-2017, 03:11 PM

Green Releases are one of the worst mechanics i've ever seen in gaming. I vote NO. Here's what I wrote months ago:

"2K Gameplay Director Beluba was nice enough to spend time on OS before release (2K17) and was really generous with his time answering questions. He expressed regret with "green releases" and I can say I definitely agree, the expectation they've created is odd and I hope he does away with the mechanic altogether (and offers the "apex release" option for veterans of 2K comfortable with that play-style) Filling the bar means you got a good release, not that you're going to hit the shot, we've always known and accepted this.

The other issue is that its spawned strategy that focuses on the release over the Defender, Situation and Offensive Player skill-set. All of that is irrelevant as long as the meter is full and is rendered moot the instant users see green. This is a bad thing, ratings have to matter...success should be equal parts user release and player ability. Part of being "good at the game" is knowing enough to put JJ Redick in position for a last second 20 footer instead of Blake Griffin. Case in point: This guy who takes horrible shots all game, but is rewarded because he has good shot-stick timing.

I miss the days when I shot the ball and didn't know when it would go in or not. When I'd shoot a game-winner with my controller but unconsciously try to help it with Body English. Developers need to recognize that guesswork is good, giving away too much information is often counter-productive, kills strategy and often takes away the excitement of the unknown. Its why online shooters at the highest level don't have kill-feeds, mini-maps and kill-cams. They provide a cheesy omniscient overall view that you'd never be provided on a real battlefield....they know gamers can appreciate being in the dark on certain aspects of the experience.

NBA 2K would do well to follow their example."

08-13-2017, 12:55 PM	#1
TalentedJB Rookie OVR: 1 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New York	To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing So, I wrote this about 2-3 weeks ago prior to the community day event 2k held where they invited hoopers from the community to try out some 1v1 Play Now action. I never got a chance to share this anywhere as I wrote it for my friend's Pro-Am/2K blog, but it was too long to post. I was to make edits on it and shorten it, but never got a chance to. So fast-forwarding to now, I'm sharing with you guys because shooting on 2K is a heated and ongoing discussion on SM -- thought i'd share my opinions on it. Sorry 4 the long read. To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing With the upcoming release of NBA 2K18 less than 50 days away, much of the community is in a frenzy. Fidgeting at their keyboards and glued to their browsers waiting painstakingly for any ounce of news 2K is willing to release. One of the hottest talking points -- one which relentlessly invites discussion across social media and within console parties – has been whether green releases should make a return or nah in 18. I done peeped many a threads, and heard many a grievances from hundreds of 2K players, Park players, PRO-AM players, Team-up ballers, and even the sim heavy cats which play HOF My League. My sentiment has remained the same all-year: keep greens but tune their frequency and difficulty. At this point in 2K17 shooting has been modified about a gazillion times. When the game first came out, sharps were godly as not only did they have HOF Limitless Range but from what I remember, Deep Range Deadeye was so OP, sharps were making contested shots in everyone’s face! Couple that with moving screens being permitted and the ease of getting a green release, and it was a loop fest every game as sharps abused moving screens by Hall of Fame Brick Wall’s and shook off contests like Kobe BEAN Bryant in his prime (I’m looking at you Agent00 lol). A couple patches here, numerous fixes and tunes there and the shooting landscape within the current patch and build has become a bit more sensible per say. For example, if you contest a Sharp, more than likely they’ll miss, if you leave them open and/or they create enough space (elite 3 or hop shot your **) they have a high chance of not only making the shot but of obtaining a green release. The latter is reasonable. Sharps/Stretch Bigs should definitely be rewarded not only for taking open shots but for also knowing their release as they are the highest rated shooters in the game --this is pretty much a consensus across the 2K community. Now, this is where the discrepancy and controversy lies: let’s say I’m a Paint Protector with a maxed out 60 three rating. I shoot an uncontested, open 3 from the left corner -- I know my release, have a hotspot there, all the appropriate badges: Catch & Shoot, Corner Specialist etc. Let’s even say the passer who gets me the rock is a Playmaker with Hall of Fame Dimer, should I get a green for that? Most 2K heads would give you an unequivocal YES! You should be rewarded with a green release, guaranteed 3 points! I would say however: “no, I should not get a green for that, a guaranteed made shot, hell no”. Now here’s why. Around this time last year, right before ’17 was to release, I remember reading developer blogs and interviews, watching videos regarding archetypes and within those were the repeated declarations: “archetypes will matter/skills will matter”. Fast forward to one month left in the game, and one can argue skills nor archetypes have not mattered (that it was indeed 2K’s plan to have them matter, yet for some reason or another developers came up short in execution) for players have found ways to operate beyond (exploited?) the limitations of what archetypes were meant to do in 2K17. I’d like to see that change in September. For example, if you have under a 65 three, you should not be a viable and/or respectable threat from three, you should definitely be a threat but a consistent three point shooter who gets greens? Nah. A realistic threat in a 5 out? Nah (teams should be able to leave you wide). Even if you know your shot? Nah. I’d say if you’re the aforementioned Paint Protector and you shoot 10 wide open 3’s in the corner off a Hall of Fame Dimer, you should make 30-35%, even if you know your release and have all the appropriate badges, with 1 or 2 of those shots being green. Not saying you shouldn’t make any of them, but for Lockdowns, Glass Cleaners, Slashers, Paint Protector’s to shoot the same clip as a Sharp from 3? Is a bit unbalanced don’t you think? But JB, it’s a video game, we should be rewarded for taking open shots, we should make all of our open shots if we know our release!* Umm, nah. First of all, 2K strives to be a basketball Sim which emulates the NBA game. Even Steph Curry, the world’s greatest shooter doesn’t make all of his wide open 3’s (let alone shots) in games. And you don’t think he knows his release? You don’t think he’s perfected his jumper to the point where he knows the most optimal point to release the ball. You don’t think he’s spent countless, if not thousands of hours in the gym, refining his shot throughout his lifetime? All this, and guess what, he still misses wide open shots. Bricks on wide open shots are as just as much apart of basketball as makes on contested shots are. I’d just like to see ratings matter a bit more. I’d like to see non-shooters become liabilities from the 3 point line, then if one team were to run a 5 out it would have to be with 5 shooters: a true 5 out. You would see greater variety in lineups if this happened. Strengths & weaknesses, 2K would turn into more of a chess match than checkers. For if one team brings out 3 sharps on the wing and 2 Tall Sharps/Stretches you know for sure you’re in for a long day at the 3 point line, but also you’ll probably dominant defensively and on the boards. The other team knows this of course, but it was a team and strategic decision to go with that lineup – they’ll have to live with the strengths and weaknesses of having all those shooters on the floor. I played Private HOF Team-up prior to taking Pro AM seriously, and for people who’ve played the mode, you know the gameplay on HOF is much more realistic. Badges and Hotspots on HOF Team-Up don’t take precedent over ratings; badges simply augment ratings, they don’t dictate the success nor are they the underlying factor on whether a shot goes in or not. For example, let’s say you play with the Clippers and you’re using Jamal Crawford at the 2 who has Corner Specialist Bronze & Catch & Shoot Bronze with an 80 Open Shot 3pt rating. If you shoot ten wide open shoots with him from a Chris Paul, Dimer Gold pass, and you know his shot, you’ll make around 4-7 of those shots. That sounds pretty reasonable to me. The reason you won’t make them all however is because on HOF despite you may knowing Crawford’s shot, the shot percentages are much more aligned with real life percentages. Now the game will still reward you, you’ll definitely get a green but the frequency won’t be as high – you may even get two or three on ten wide open shots. **, maybe Pro-Am and the competitive modes should be played on HOF (future post)? With all that being said, I’m a fan of greens, I think they should stay. I think for the E-League specifically and streamed Pro-Am games it would be wild exciting to see someone get a green shot after working towards a smart one. I even think 2K should somehow implement a way to display green shot releases to everyone on the court! Even to defenders! How dope would it be to know you played good D and in that specific possession if the variables were right (great shot, on fire, ball movement prior to the shot, you have the actual high ratings, opposing team has momentum etc.) there was nothing you could do about it. You were simply drained, that’ll be dope to have in 2k, just make that super rare lol. In all, I think reducing the frequency of greens, especially for non-shooters would elevate the game of many in the community. Let’s be honest, the entire Pro Am/Park community has become TOO dependent on getting greens, rather than simply taking smart, basketball shots. You got folk talking “man that should be green” rather than examining whether they took a good shot or not lol. I got faith in 2K going into 18; I think they’ll get shooting right. Hopefully they can balance stick skills and ratings, let’s just pray they don’t give into the casuals after the first 3 weeks. One-Love Y’all. - TalentedJB Sundown, infemous, synistatha1 and 1 others like this. __________________ Favorite teams: NCAA FB: Rutgers NCAA BB: UCONN NBA: Knicks NFL: GIANTS. MLB:** Mets Last edited by TalentedJB; 08-13-2017 at 12:58 PM.

08-13-2017, 01:07 PM	#2
thedream2k16 Banned OVR: 0 Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: The Woodlands	Re: To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing There should not be guaranteed shots success should always be contingent on ratings, defensive pressure, spot on court etc etc DoWork, Crossover1, MarvellousOne and 10 others like this.

08-13-2017, 01:40 PM	#3
TalentedJB Rookie OVR: 1 Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New York	Re: To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing I agree wholeheartedly! Now try telling that to the entire Pro-Am/Park community, as well as the people 2K actually invites and listens to during their feedback session. synistatha1 likes this. __________________ Favorite teams: NCAA FB: Rutgers NCAA BB: UCONN NBA: Knicks NFL: GIANTS. MLB: Mets

08-13-2017, 02:18 PM	#4
VAWereWolf65 MVP OVR: 0 Join Date: Jul 2016 Blog Entries: 1	Re: To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing This was my proposal: MyPark: Yes greens, 100% chance of making a green ProAm: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100% Offline Gamemodes: Option to turn them off or on Play Now Online/Myteam/Etc: No greens, or at least make it so they aren't 100% Themayorofawsometown and TalentedJB like this. __________________ VAWereWolf65's Custom Draft Class Thread - 2k19 (Xbox One)

08-13-2017, 02:29 PM	#7
MoodMuzik Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Jul 2013	Re: To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing Greens are fine, and for video game/fun aspect, keep them 100%. Just nerf the p*ss out of them to a true rarity. jackzagal and TalentedJB like this.

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08-13-2017, 03:11 PM	#8
Kushmir MVP OVR: 16 Join Date: Jun 2003 Blog Entries: 10	Re: To Green Or Not To Green? That Is the Question: On General Shooting & Balancing Green Releases are one of the worst mechanics i've ever seen in gaming. I vote NO. Here's what I wrote months ago: "2K Gameplay Director Beluba was nice enough to spend time on OS before release (2K17) and was really generous with his time answering questions. He expressed regret with "green releases" and I can say I definitely agree, the expectation they've created is odd and I hope he does away with the mechanic altogether (and offers the "apex release" option for veterans of 2K comfortable with that play-style) Filling the bar means you got a good release, not that you're going to hit the shot, we've always known and accepted this. The other issue is that its spawned strategy that focuses on the release over the Defender, Situation and Offensive Player skill-set. All of that is irrelevant as long as the meter is full and is rendered moot the instant users see green. This is a bad thing, ratings have to matter...success should be equal parts user release and player ability. Part of being "good at the game" is knowing enough to put JJ Redick in position for a last second 20 footer instead of Blake Griffin. Case in point: This guy who takes horrible shots all game, but is rewarded because he has good shot-stick timing. I miss the days when I shot the ball and didn't know when it would go in or not. When I'd shoot a game-winner with my controller but unconsciously try to help it with Body English. Developers need to recognize that guesswork is good, giving away too much information is often counter-productive, kills strategy and often takes away the excitement of the unknown. Its why online shooters at the highest level don't have kill-feeds, mini-maps and kill-cams. They provide a cheesy omniscient overall view that you'd never be provided on a real battlefield....they know gamers can appreciate being in the dark on certain aspects of the experience. NBA 2K would do well to follow their example." DoWork, shayellis, BluFu and 9 others like this.