Block Timing still needs lot of work

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake

The point was to illustrate that double jumps or consecutive jumps in the same spot are still realistic.

Balance over realism. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS.

The other issue is that in development the KISS method always wins, EASIER: penalize a missed block or develop a system where the draw foul mechanic is consistent after its obvious the devs have struggled here for some time? Ehhhh.....I know where i'm putting my money.

Another core issue with the Block system is that it also deflects passes...essentially the user gets Rock and Paper. They've use the block command but the engine still allows block spammers (who are expecting a shot) to deflect the pass--very often resulting in a steal. This is another egregious loophole that doesnt reward fooling the other user--one of the key tenets of H2H gaming. It also disregards the defensive users intent. Imagine pressing the bounce pass on a lob and the game correcting it for you....can't happen.

The game can't be afraid to let users fail.

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

Balance over realism. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS. Spoiler The other issue is that in development the KISS method always wins, EASIER: penalize a missed block or develop a system where the draw foul mechanic is consistent after its obvious the devs have struggled here for some time? Ehhhh.....I know where i'm putting my money. Another core issue with the Block system is that it also deflects passes...essentially the user gets Rock and Paper. They've use the block command but the engine still allows block spammers (who are expecting a shot) to deflect the pass--very often resulting in a steal. This is another egregious loophole that doesnt reward fooling the other user--one of the key tenets of H2H gaming. It also disregards the defensive users intent. Imagine pressing the bounce pass on a lob and the game correcting it for you....can't happen. The game can't be afraid to let users fail.

I haven’t read your entire post, haven’t gone through the entire post, but just wanted to quickly address sone parts of it.

REALISM always, always, always because realism itself will balance out the game. How much cheese is really in the NBA or a basketball game? There are counters to everything in a basktball game because realism will weed out video game cheese.

If it’s simply about balance over realism, no one should ever label 2k ‘simulation’ ever again. If you believe the KISS method is most appropriate, then that is why player awareness is the way it is in 2k. That is why a lot of things in 2k is the way it is.

As I pointed out in my previous post,

Blocks: the problem could simply be the offensive player not being able to explode immediately after the defender is still in the air. If I’m able spam jump 4 consecutive times against the cpu hof, and the cpu doesn’t even react and explode to score after my first jump, that’s an offensive issue. Where is a game mechanic where the offensive player can draw a foul while the defender is still in the air?

Steals: The offense needs to be able to explode after a steal attempt that exist currently in the game. You can certainly call more fouls, but realism means the player can explode after a steal swipe because the defender is a bit off-balance. You don't have to make the defender fly completely out of position for balance. After a rebound, holding L2 also requires the user to flick the right stick I believe down to hold the ball up high. Flick the right stick left and right to throw elbow clear outs I think.

Also I’m leaving the house soon, so you might not get an immediate response if you do reply.

[Kushmir]

Quote: Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake

I haven’t read your entire post, haven’t gone through the entire post, but just wanted to quickly address some parts of it. REALISM always, always, always because realism itself will balance out the game.

Keep in mind BALANCE over REALISM isn't something catchy I said to sound cool, its dev and gaming mantra. You either agree with it or you're wrong.

Its why sideline cheese had to be tuned with balance in mind, because realism let guys draw fouls at will.

Realism is nice but keep in mind there aren't any overriding physics systems that you can put in that will govern every interaction...they wont make everything obey say, gravity--thats a misnomer. Want proper interaction between shooters and jumping defenders? FINE. Create a system for it. Want steals to play out a certain way? AGAIN: Create a system for it. Want rebounding to behave? AGAIN: Make a system. Keep in mind yearly titles often means 7.5 months of real developmental time. Sure, you can create said REALISM-focused system but its gonna take your best engineer the whole cycle to complete and its the only main feature going in.....still cool with that? From a time/resources standpoint its why it makes the most sense to go with the simplest/fastest solutions for resolving issues...often that means tuning system that already exist.

[Kushmir]

I cannot stress how bad of a mechanic this Block/Deflect is. The user is flat-out wrong and still benefits. Its core basketball to drive and drop-off pass at the last minute a la Magic Johnson. This nullifies that even when the user is fooled.

[OrlandoTill]

I would say balance in a competitive game(User vs. User)

But realism when conveying the sport(AI vs. AI)

I like having agency when going against the AI or watching the AI in demo mode as it allows for a lot of random outcomes but I forgo all of the agency for a balanced game especially online(where people are exploiting every mechanic).

This is why people complain about the AI having stick glue hands when we bump into them but in comparison they have it where they can bump into us at any point and we lose the ball(I understand having that in MyCareer due to SkillPoints/VC but not in MyLeague or offline PlayNow).

People want an immersive off-line experience. We want a somewhat immersive but mostly balanced on-line experience.

[TheFinalEvent97]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

I cannot stress how bad of a mechanic this Block/Deflect is. The user is flat-out wrong and still benefits. Its core basketball to drive and drop-off pass at the last minute a la Magic Johnson. This nullifies that even when the user is fooled.

If i remember correctly in 2K17 in pro am at least if you jumped for a block it wasn't possible to steal/tip the pass, that may be a bit extreme but it's better than it currently. IRL its very difficult to go for a shot contest/block and react quick enough to tip a pass out of shot.

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kushmir

Keep in mind BALANCE over REALISM isn't something catchy I said to sound cool, its dev and gaming mantra. You either agree with it or you're wrong. Its why sideline cheese had to be tuned with balance in mind, because realism let guys draw fouls at will. Realism is nice but keep in mind there aren't any overriding physics systems that you can put in that will govern every interaction...they wont make everything obey say, gravity--thats a misnomer. Want proper interaction between shooters and jumping defenders? FINE. Create a system for it. Want steals to play out a certain way? AGAIN: Create a system for it. Want rebounding to behave/ AGAIN: Make a system for it. Keep in mind yearly titles often means 7.5 months of real developmental time. Sure, you can create said REALISM-focused system but its gonna take your best engineer the whole cycle to complete and its the only main feature going in.....still cool with that? From a time/resources standpoint its why it makes the most sense to go with the simplest/fastest solutions for resolving issues...often that means tuning system that already exist.

Did you catch my statement "Realism will balance out the game."

REALISM IS BALANCE. You have to stop saying balance over realism when realism is balance.

If strictly "balance" or whatever this "dev and gaming mantra" is working, why do we still have the same issues 20 years into this franchise? Is it because they are so focused on trying to get this balance see-saw working properly that it falls to pieces when the balance tips in one direction. Maybe they have to start thinking differently about how they approach gameplay design.

Of course I'm cool with the entire cycle devoted to creating realistic aspects; just check the forum's complaints including your complaints about 2k19's gameplay mechanics. How well is that traditional "mantra" working?

I don't think you've ever addressed my suggestion on those double jumps. You want balance, I'm giving you real solution on how to achieve balance with realism.
(1) Button sensitive jumps;
(2) Give the offensive player ability to explode immediately after the defender is in the air; are dunks and layups too slow, then increase the speed to match realistic dunks/layups speed;
(3) Give the offensive player the ability to draw a foul while the defender bites on the pump fake.

These are realistic gameplay mechanics that will give you the "balance" that you want without nerfing realistic secondary jumps. Sideline cheese was overpowered because 2k didn't implement realistic "first step" gameplay design. If the defender gets to his spot first, then it becomes a charge; if he's late, it's a block, etc. That's approaching the design focusing on realism, which in turn, will balance the gameplay.

The way you're looking at "gameplay balance" sometimes seems to be nerfing realism (i.e. disliking effective double jumps; wanting extreme lunging steal missed attempts).

The way I'm looking at "gameplay balance" is to introduce realistic simulation gameplay mechanics, which in turn will balance the game (i.e. explosive first steps when someone has a missed steal attempt, faster dunk/layup speed when the defender bites, etc.)

We're saying the same thing. I'm just using the word "realism" while you're using the word "balance." You’re looking to nerf, I’m looking at implementing realistic counters. Which is why I don't get why you constantly harp on "Balance over realism" when "realism is in fact the definition of balance."

Again, obviously whatever design mantra they're following isn't working. Get realism mechanics right and you don't have to keep revisiting the same thing over and over and over again. Get realism right the first time and it'll work always. That's being efficient. Continuing to battle that "balance" seesaw year in and year out is futile; just get realism right, and you can move on to other areas that need "realism".

Quote: Originally Posted by OrlandoTill

Spoiler would say balance in a competitive game(User vs. User) But realism when conveying the sport(AI vs. AI) I like having agency when going against the AI or watching the AI in demo mode as it allows for a lot of random outcomes but I forgo all of the agency for a balanced game especially online(where people are exploiting every mechanic). This is why people complain about the AI having stick glue hands when we bump into them but in comparison they have it where they can bump into us at any point and we lose the ball(I understand having that in MyCareer due to SkillPoints/VC but not in MyLeague or offline PlayNow). People want an immersive off-line experience. We want a somewhat immersive but mostly balanced on-line experience.

Can you define what your definition of realism versus balance is? I’ve already stated that realism is balance because every realistic offensive move has a defensive counter, and vice versa. The problem comes down to whether or not 2k knows how to get realism correct. And what do you mean by ‘agency?’

What mechanics are people exploiting? ... in other words, 2k hasn’t recreated the counter balance mechanic properly if people are exploiting something. If something is overpowered, ‘realism’ wasn’t recreated propperly.

[olajuwon34]

The game is geared towards shooting, dribbling, and pick and rolls, just like in the real nba the inside game is dying, 2k will make their games the same way, yes you can still give the ball to a post player and score in the game, but its not consistently effective because of the games mechanics, i mean heck, go watch da_czar's videos, he's a developer for the game, i glanced at his videos when the game first came out and a couple days ago, i didnt see one time when he was showing 2k19, when he tried to get a man in position under the hoop for a scoring opportunity, or simply just posting up, its all mainly off screen plays for shooters, pick and rolls, pick and fades etc. When they're developing the game now they keep all that stuff in mind, and inside scoring and post is lower priority.